Scott Adams' Pointy Haired Views On Copyright
from the whose-cognitive-dissonance-was-that? dept
I've been quite busy lately and haven't had a chance to get much work done on the latest post about economics in the absence of scarcity, but it seems like Dilbert creator Scott Adams has picked up on a piece of the topic. dcm writes in to let us know: "Sounds like Adams has been reading your blog. He mentions a few reoccurring themes from your many entries, but comes to the opposite conclusions. Being a copyright owner, he sees it from a different perspective. I don't think I suffer from cognitive dissonance as he says, but that maybe that is the cognitive dissonance speaking. What do you think?"
It's an interesting read, and his description of the position statement of those who don't believe copyright infringement is the equivalent of stealing is almost word for word along the lines of what we generally say. However, where Adams gets confused is when he gets down into analogy land. He uses an argument about borrowing someone's underwear, cleaning it and putting it back -- but that's a bad example and not at all analogous. Also, the use of underwear and the idea of wearing someone else's is designed to make people react emotionally, not logically. The problem is that the analogy isn't at all valid, since the underwear is a scarce good -- and even if someone else takes it and cleans it, wearing it has a real "cost" to the original owner. The underwear is worn down slightly, the owner cannot wear it at the same time if he wanted to and there is, of course, that emotional cost of knowing someone else is wearing your underwear. However, a much more analogous situation is that someone learns that you wear one kind of underwear and makes a similar pair for themselves. In fact, to make it even more analogous, say that someone has created a special replicating machine that allows you to replicate the style of anyone's underwear that you like. That's what's happening. Suddenly, it doesn't seem nearly as bad.
The bigger problem with Adams' essay, however, is that he seems confused about how markets work. He complains that the "loss" created by infringement is the creator's right to control how a work is marketed. Unfortunately, there is no such right. If I build a chair and someone buys it, then they can then market it however they want. The creator doesn't retain control. Or, if you want to get even more specific, if I build a chair and someone else likes it and builds their own similar chair, again they can market it however they want. In fact, as we were just discussing, this is pretty much how the fashion industry works -- and it's working out quite well there, creating all sorts of incentives for continual growth, creativity and innovation. Once a product is out in the market, the original creator no longer gets to keep control over it.
Finally, it's quite weak of Adams to then pick some very poorly thought out defenses of copyright infringement and use that as evidence that everyone who disagrees with copyright policy has cognitive dissonance on the issue. It's a blanket way of brushing off all criticism without addressing the actual points. All in all, Scott Adams is an intelligent and thoughtful guy -- so it's too bad that his argument on this particular topic wasn't more compelling.
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by Chair man on Apr 16th, 2007 @ 11:51pm
one question.... can i therefore replicate a chair that i have and sell it for profit...
if so then why cant i replicate somthing like a cd and sell it for profit...
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Those who live in glass houses. by Anonymous Coward on Apr 16th, 2007 @ 11:54pm
You criticize Adams for using an emotional argument with the underwear analogy and yet you belittle his arguments by saying that he is "confused" by this and "confused" by that.
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compete with free and immediate by Andy on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 12:16am
Adams says you can't compete with free and immediate. One way to complete against free and immediate is by being free, immediate and authoritative.
Open source projects compete on (at least) these three aspects all the time. If an authoritative project isn't free or has slow development, one will pop up that is immediate (or at least faster release cycle) or free. If there are numerous forks that are equal in freedom, price, and development speed, causing market confusion, one will, eventually, rise up and be authoritative (usually though increased marketing or developer mindshare).
Usually, being authoritative isn't even something you can obtain easily. It has to do with brand recognition, track record/history, and consumer adoption.
I wonder how many more sales of the print version of Adams' book (to use one of his examples) would result by actually _undercutting_ free and immediate by putting the book up, for free, on his website when or before it's published and providing a link right next to it that says 'buy the print version now!'. As the creator and copyright owner, he's effectively the only one that can do that.
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Re: Those who live in glass houses. by Joshua on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 12:22am
Would it have been better to just come out and say "Scott Adams was wrong about this"?
Saying he is wrong implies that he was incapable of generating the correct answer, which I am told can be insulting (I personally don't understand why that would be insulting).
While saying he is confused implies that he overlooked some aspect of the issue and just has not yet figured it out.
Which is worse? Being told you had all of the information and were still wrong or being told that you just don't seem able to grasp the issue? Either way it will seem insulting and emotionally based to *someone* out there.
Is there a way to say that someone is wrong politely?
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Get a life by Dale Flannery on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 12:33am
Scott is just a shit-stirrer who likes to inflame passions and stand back to watch the conflagration. And he has sound business reasons for doing so. So, since you are not a reader of the dilbert blog, like dcm is, you swallowed his bait, hook line and sinker.
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Scott Adams by Isotopian on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 12:38am
Is a trained hypnotist, after all. He likes to use subliminal effects and hypnotic induction in his writing. It's actually quite tricky if you know to look for it.
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by Rick on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 12:40am
Why do you have to be 'polite' to tell someone they are wrong?
If someone is unable to deal with criticism - harsh, constructive or otherwise, they need to move back in with their mommies and grow up.
It's become far too politically correct to not offend anyone, which in turn limits our abilities and options. Life is not about limits and tip toeing around issues so nobody gets offended - especially when they are wrong.
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“I agree with your analysis of your hallucinatio by Dennis on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 12:55am
Scott Adams does not put forth what he believes on his blogs (in general). He puts for thought experiments and asks what you think of them. He enjoys reading the responses, especially the ones by people who totally misrepresent what he said or what he believes. From his blog a few days later:
"
My New Favorite Response
I’ve noticed that a lot of people, if not most, have sharp disagreements with what they hallucinate to be my opinions.
...
Anyway, I’m trying out my new favorite response to the people who get angry over their hallucinations of my opinions:
'I agree with your analysis of your hallucination.'"
As has already been said, he likes to stir up shit. He also likes to stir up peoples minds and he enjoys seeing what comes out afterwards.
The reason I enjoy reading his blog is that he doesn't make an argument to be right, but to see what comes out of it. It's fun. Sometimes it gives you a new perspective on things. But to take it as a serious analysis is to miss the point completely. I found the Techdirt analysis of his idea (not his belief necessarily) informative and thought provoking.
Interestingly, your chair example holds up only if you don't agree not to resell that chair by contract--just as with a software license. Of course, no one would buy a chair with that condition and they would rightly be shocked at the idea. Which shows how out of sync with the rest of the market copyright is.
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Kinda missing his point... by Geeb on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 1:17am
This is a pretty weak criticism of Scott Adams' argument. He set up the original analogy to make it clear that the owner hasn't been inconvenienced (presumably he was wearing other underwear at the time), and the degree of erosion the fabric would suffer is so trivial as to be irrelevant if, as per the analogy, we're talking about a single incident.
The emotional cost was the important one, and it was the whole point of the original analogy. I would imagine that a musician whose new album is distributed via bittorrent ahead of the release date would find rather more common ground with Adams' analogy than with your hypothetical style replicating device, as it is his entire creative effort has been duplicated, it's not just some other performer doing an impression. It's the emotional loss of someone else getting a free ride from your efforts that Adams is highlighting. It would therefore have been useful if you had addressed it, rather than trying to reframe the argument in terms of real physical damage.
It wouldn't really have been all that difficult to focus on his real point, either - "it hurts my feelings" isn't a phenomenally persuasive economic argument, especially when accompanied by such a blatant strawman fallacy ("those against state-supported intellectual monopoly claim that they are doing me a favour by publicising my work more widely").
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RE: Kinda missing his point... by Geeb by Cixelsid on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 1:41am
Jesus Geeb. Punch yourself in the face. Do it now Geeb. Punch yourself right on the nose. Anybody who can say with a straight face that copyright infringement is analogous to wearing somebody elses underwear should get punched in the face... daily... possibly by midgets so he can bend down to get the face beating. And if he doesn't he gets socked in the balls.
Are you seriously saying that artists feel emotional distress when people admire their work so much they want to obtain it, be it through piracy or not? What are you fucking nuts? The key word here is exposure, without exposure artists may as well just hang up their collective hats and jerk off to nurse porn 24/7.
If you're an artist and you put your work out there and NOBODY gives a shit, nobody pirates your crap. Not even china (who would pirate nose puppies if they could). Then, and only then should you feel emotional distress.
Fucking underwear. That is the most weak argument ever presented in the entire history of weak arguments.
Stop mucking about, there is no IRATE without PIRATE.
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Re: RE: Kinda missing his point... by Geeb by Geeb on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 2:19am
Seems it's not just Scott Adams who can roll out a strawman fallacy in order to keep a good temper tantrum on the boil!(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
DirtyTech by H Lancroft on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 2:32am
So what happens if I, say, want to setup a web site named DirtyTech, which posts my views on technology. It also, of course, will include your articles word-for-word. After all, once they're are on the web they're "non-scarce" and can be replicated at will.
At any rate, with a few well-placed ads and cross-posts on other sites I'm sure over time I can build a following, and, in the process, a tidy little business with Google ads and banners and some affiliate links. Probably won't do as well as yours, but it should keep me in pocket money. (Although on second thought, I have a decent fund I can tap into to buy traffic. Hmmm... maybe it won't take as long as I thought.) I can also piggy-back on a server used for another site, so I'll have no hostiing costs.
I'll also "re"-sell discounted research reports to those who may want them. After all, "once a product is out in the market, the original creator no longer gets to keep control over it."
Now, they are looking at my ads and not yours, and bumping my page views and not yours, and buying my reports, and not yours, but all of this shouldn't be an issue, since in all likelyhood you would never have "sold" those people in the first place. They might never have visited in the first place, or gone to some other site instead.
You might believe that with your content they would have been "your" customers, but any such claim of financial loss is obviously imaginary. After all, how could you, or anyone, know for sure?
Since I often have problems thinking up topics, this seems like a good solution to me. Especially since I have no qualms about taking credit for someone else's work.
But then again, the amount of work you put into your articles and posts and reports is irrelevant, isn't it? IIRC, production costs have no bearing on content once it's been produced.
I'll be back to check your answer. I need to visit GoDaddy and see what domains are available...
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Is it a crime? Is it victimless? by NotAVictim on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 2:49am
"I understand the point that copyright violations are different from theft of physical property, but is it a victimless crime?"
Here we come back to this point again. Linking victim and crime.
Scenario 1:
I read people palms and tell the future.
Someone else comes along and reads their palms.
I've lost palm reading customers.
Is it victimless? (No damn it, I'm the victim!) Is it a crime? (no)
Scenario 2:
Government wants to encourage palm reading as a commercial activity, so it creates a guild of palm readers.
I am a member, someone else who isn't a guild member comes along and reads their palms.
I've lost palm reading customers.
Is it victimless? (No damn it, I'm the victim again) Is it a crime? (Yes)
In both cases it's not victimless, I AM THE VICTIM WITH THE LOST CUSTOMER, but in scenario 2, it is also a crime.
My point is, just because there is a victim, it doesn't follow that a crime was committed.
I chose palmistry because it's a low rated skill and so not worthy of legal protection. It requires low investment in learning the trade and so it is easy to recover the costs.
If you spent 100 million making a movie, you have a different view of copyright, but you should never forget that copyright is a special legal construct of restricted extra rights SOLELY FOR THE PURPOSE OF ENCOURAGING THE PRODUCTION OF NEW WORKS.
Not a *property* right at all, a legal construct to encourage new works. A TRADE, A DEAL, A BALANCE,
We get new works, you get some exclusive rights to that reproduce that work.
I lose some rights, you gain some rights, that balance is set so that you can make some money and encourages you to make more works.
Since Scott Adams is rich, the balance is set, if anything too far in his favor. A perfect free market would have him just covering his costs.
What is wrong with me printing off a dilbert cartoon and sticking it on the wall of my cubicle? If you think I should pay for the right to do that, then how can you quote other peoples works or use other people's cartoon ideas without ALSO paying them for their contribution?
BALANCE.
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Re: DirtyTech by Cixelsid on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 3:50am
So you're basically saying competition is copyright infringement. In fact, that's pretty much what most companies also want to believe. In the same vein Google, Yahoo, Altavista, Web Crawler (add any other search engine) are copies of the same basic idea. Here's where quality of service and innovation comes into play, people go to the search engine they feel most comfortable with because of the quality it delivers. If its shit people will leave. So go ahead, start your DirtyTech, if its popular I'll visit it, if I like it I'll even drop TechDirt in favor of your own site. But chances are it won't, it'll suck as badly as you do in real life. That's why TechDirt doesn't give a shit. Chances are you'll just promote interest in the original, much cooler site.
Be your own MAN, a PIRATE has hair on his knuckles!
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Re: Re: RE: Kinda missing his point... by Geeb by Cixelsid on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 3:54am
Seems it's not just Scott Adams who can roll out a strawman fallacy in order to keep a good temper tantrum on the boil!
More weak from the pwner of lame. Are you bleeding yet Geeb? If not, punch yourself harder.
Ladies do you want adventure? Daring? Open Seas? Scurvy? Date a Pirate! TODAY!!!
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Re: Is it a crime? Is it victimless? by Cixelsid on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 4:05am
Since Scott Adams is rich, the balance is set, if anything too far in his favor. A perfect free market would have him just covering his costs.
What is wrong with me printing off a dilbert cartoon and sticking it on the wall of my cubicle? If you think I should pay for the right to do that, then how can you quote other peoples works or use other people's cartoon ideas without ALSO paying them for their contribution?
BALANCE.
Fucking right on! You sir, are an eloquent specimen with the heart of a true Pirate. I salute you!
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by TG on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 4:05am
I left a somewhat detailed and lengthy comment on Adams' blog on why he was wrong about the copyright issue and his flawed analogy, but then I read the next post about cognitive dissonance and asked him to remove my post again.
It became quite obvious that he was more interested in making fun of people than in the topic at hand. It was not an attempt at a sincere exchange of views, it was a finger-pointing exercise where he could ridicule everyone else.
I'm surprised Techdirt took it seriously.
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Re: Re: DirtyTech by Geeb on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 4:09am
> Be your own MAN, a PIRATE has hair on his knuckles!
Oops, sorry everyone, my bad. Didn't mean to feed the troll - must have missed the sign on cage.
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Re: Re: Re: DirtyTech by Cixelsid on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 4:22am
Oops, sorry everyone, my bad. Didn't mean to feed the troll - must have missed the sign on cage.
Haha, dont worry Geeb, everybody still thinks you're a loser. Including your mom.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: DirtyTech by Cixelsid on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 4:24am
Also... PIRATES RULE the seven seas!
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by The Swiss Cheese Monster on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 4:35am
"...is almost word for word along the lines of what we generally say."
Is he plagiarizing?
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Re: by nonuser on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 5:08am
I think he's serious about the copyright violation topic, although his analogy of swiping underpants was more than a little goofy. I recall making the analogy here of borrowing a book from Border's from a large stack of identical copies, then sneaking it back in saleable condition two weeks later. Maybe that's why nobody has offered to syndicate my work (another reason is that I can't draw).
As for cognitive dissonance, you can see it clearly on sites such as Slashdot, when articles about DRM cracking and IT offshoring to India are posted on the same day. Watch where the majority sentiments are and which posts get modded up so they are expanded by default. Software and digitial content should be free... but where is the Bush administration when it comes to protecting good paying American jobs? It's laughable that they don't see they are advocating their own economic interests in each case. Maybe it comes down to defending one's lifestyle.
Of course, I'm sure I do the same as well, as it's easier to see other people's failings. Now why did that cop single me out when dozens of cars where whizzing by at 75 mph...?
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artists vs. piracy? by Wolfger on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 5:11am
Have you ever noticed that the only artists who speak out *against* piracy are the ones who are already rich and famous? Sure... the system worked for them, so they don't see any problem with it. Never mind that it's 5 kinds of broken, and that somewhere along the way they probably benefited from unauthorized distribution of their stuff without even realizing it.... I mean seriously, would Scott Adams have sold as many books if his comics weren't illegally photocopied and posted in offices around the world? I seriously doubt it.
And the underwear analogy was incredibly weak. And honestly, if it didn't involve physical intrusion into my house, I'd be okay with somebody borrowing my undies and returning them clean. But as Mike points out, Scott is deliberately trying to make the argument emotional rather than rational. Because, I suspect, he realizes he can't win a rational argument on this topic.
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Re: artists vs. piracy? by Wolfger by Cixelsid on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 5:28am
I mean seriously, would Scott Adams have sold as many books if his comics weren't illegally photocopied and posted in offices around the world?
The answer is no and I win a vowel.
And the underwear analogy was incredibly weak.
Yes it is. Some people (and by some people I mean Geeb) cant seem to grasp that. I guess maybe blind fanboism is to blame but seriously, what the fuck? Underwear? Gimme a break.
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Re: Chairman by StuCop on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 5:32am
by Chair man on Apr 16th, 2007 @ 11:51pm
one question.... can i therefore replicate a chair that i have and sell it for profit...
if so then why cant i replicate somthing like a cd and sell it for profit...
------------
you can...grab your guitars, keyboards and drums and get in the studio...be the next boy band or post-grunger or whatever...imitation is the sincerest form of flattery...however uncreative that may be...that's why we have nickleback...
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by DocJ on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 5:37am
You people (TechDirt writers) crack me up. You're exactly as Adams describes. And you're so self-deluded you can't even see it.
TechDirt has become a good source of comedy over the last couple years.
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by Peter on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 6:02am
"I mean seriously, would Scott Adams have sold as many books if his comics weren't illegally photocopied and posted in offices around the world?"
That may be true, but there is a big difference between copying one cartoon and putting it in your office for a handful of coworkers to see and making an exact copy of the entire book and giving it away for free.
Lending a CD to one friend so they can listen and see if they like it is the same as posting the cartoon (it's a just a sample of the whole product). Making an exact copy of the book and giving it to them gives them no incentive to purchase the book themselves. Why would they, they already have it?
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Some quick points by Fudouri on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 6:17am
Scott Adams has said numerous times that he is perfectly okay with people emailing his comics around.
Scott Adams is saying there is a cost, and its an emotional one. Techdirt and Dilbert are making the same point, only one feels the emotional cost is important, the other doesn't.
The reason why only big names complain isn't because they are big. Its because you have to be a big name to get your complaints public. Small no-name bands complain too, they just aren't heard. It takes "not caring about copyright" to get into the news for small groups.
The goal of the underwear analogy is to look ridiculous, but make you think. I would say "underwear replicator" is an even more ridiculous analogy.
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re: DirtyTech by Kilroy on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 6:23am
I agree with the post by H Lancroft. It is morally wrong for someone to profit from plagiarizing someone else’s work, be it words, music or software.
The reason so many analogy’s break down (including Adams’) is because they try to compare this situation to something in the physical world and the come back is always the same line about scarcity.
That’s why this needs to compared with plagiarism and not theft. Plagiarism is wrong and there are real consequences for it. People lose their jobs over it.
Now, this situation SEEMINGLY gets grayer if you don't profit off the plagiarism because you just spread it around for free. However, just because you didn't try to market it doesn't mean you didn't plagiarize it. You copied something then offered it away on your terms, not the copywrite holder’s. Could this lead to a drop is sales of the original product? Probably, yes. The mere fact that pirated work COULD gain more notoriety and COULD lead to MORE sales simply can’t be the business model for all intellectual property and it is not being done by consent of the copywrite holder which makes that argument wrong.
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Re: Is it a crime? Is it victimless? by Anonymous Coward on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 6:31am
But copyright violation is not just healthy competition like with your palm readers... It's more like one of those palm readers psychicly reading another's mind and what he's going to say to every customer, then standing someways off and shouting at any that approach the tent of the other palm reader "I can give you the exact same fortune for a few bucks less." Comparing something like mp3s to the physical often makes no sense, and any analogy can be thought of from both perspectives.
Also, Scott Adams isn't upset when you post a cartoon around your office; it's when you reprint the cartoon and profit off of it. A little more reasonable.
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Scott Adams' Pointy Haired Views On Copyright by John Bonaccorso on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 6:37am
Right up front, I created a site and technology platform that addresses this issue....I want you all to know right up front....check out www.9thxchange.com....i have been to Hollywood on many occasions and spoken to heads of Disney, MLB, NBA, Sony, etc....and they STILL just dont get it. Why shouldnt consumers be allowed to RESELL their digital purchases like we can RESELL a chair.....well, since the laws state you cant, we created a solution we are offering that ALLOWS people to legally RESELL items, while we capture and pay the copyright holder on each RESALE....we believe that this is a decent solution that bridges the gap between piracy and copyright holders...it is not the ONLY solution...but we believe most people are honest and would love to LEGALLY RESELL their digital products....and should be able to...I am going to contact Scott Adams and see what he says abou that.... Comments?
John
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Mee too by Wizard Prang on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 6:37am
that copyright is a special legal construct of restricted extra rights SOLELY FOR THE PURPOSE OF ENCOURAGING THE PRODUCTION OF NEW WORKS.
Well said sir. Nice to see that someone has been reading the Constitution.
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Re: Some quick points by Anonymous Coward on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 6:37am
Why is an "underwear replicator" a ridiculous analogy? What's the difference between that and right-clicking on an .mp3 file, making an exact copy of it, and emailing it to a friend?
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Copyright infringement by EH on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 7:04am
One thing that is true is that we should all have the freedom to make poor business decisions. I don't think you would get much argument on the subject of whether or not record companies (for example) *should* allow people to freely download their music. The argument is whether or not they should be *forced* to allow people to freely download their music.
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by Anonymous Coward on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 7:13am
So what happens if I, say, want to setup a web site named DirtyTech, which posts my views on technology.
Take Dorpus with you, M'kay?
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Re: DirtyTech by chris on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 7:49am
I have no qualms about taking credit for someone else's work.
no where in p2p, or you tube, or any other "infringing" activity that the content industry is so scared of does someone take credit for someone else's work.
pirated copies of windows all still say microsoft on them. even cutomized slipz like the ones from eXPerience still say microsoft on them.
when i download an episode of "lost" or whatever from BT, the "pwnzr crew" isn't passing the show off at thiers. they want you to know they released it, yes, so you recognize how leet they are, but no one expects you to think they made the show.
that is the problem with calling this stuff theft.
it's unauthorized, it's unappreciated, and it might be illegal, but it's not theft.
if i jack you for your car, you need to come up with another car somehow. if it was a $20,000 car, you are now out $20,000 unless you get the car back in the same condition as before. that's theft.
if i publish your book with my name on it, that is theft. i am getting paid for your work and you aren't. letting my friends read my copy isn't theft.
if you worked your ass off on a book report in college and got an A, and i made copies of it and handed them out to people saying "H Lancroft wrote this paper and got an A, check it out!" that isn't theft.
the people all know you wrote it. they *might* even ask you to write more.
"but what if someone tries to hand it off as their own and get an A too?"
well, thanks to all those copies i handed out, it's pretty easy to prove that your paper is the original.
even if you told me to stop handing out your paper, a rational argument would be "why not? it's a great paper! why don't you want people to read it?"
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Re: Those who live in glass houses. by ConceptJunkie on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 7:54am
Yes, but he provided good reasons to back it up.
That's not belittling at all, but drawing a conclusion based on the statements Scott Adams made.
Essentually, he said "He seems confused because his arguments don't make sense." And then gives detailed reasons why. It seems that either you have extremely thin skin, or you are confusing debating and name-calling.
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Re: Re: DirtyTech by Peter on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 8:10am
even if you told me to stop handing out your paper, a rational argument would be "why not? it's a great paper! why don't you want people to read it?"
It doesn't matter why I might not want other people to read it, it's my paper and I can do what I want with it.
That's the point here, the content belongs to the copyright holder and they can do with it as they please. Just because you like it and think others should read/watch/listen to it, doesn't give you the right or permission to distribute it on the copyright holder's behalf. If I want to create content with absurdly restrictive DRM on it, that's my right. Just like it's your right to not buy it or watch it or listen to it.
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"Intelligent and thoughtful" by Mark on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 8:15am
Remember, this is the same "intelligent and thoughtful guy" who, in an interview some years back, said "there are two types of people in the world: the ones who are creative and become engineers, and everyone else, who go into the service industry." No doubt that sort of observation requires a special form of cognitive dissonance that Scott Adams can call his own.
I enjoy the strip and read it to this day, but I learned a long time ago not to pay much attention to what comes out of Adams' mouth.
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I think Scott Adams is right by Jackson on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 8:32am
Copyrights make intellectual property more valuable, which increases the incentive to create new and interesting work.
Your argument that only physical goods should be protected ignores the vast amounts of time and effort people put into creating things(probably because you put so little thought into your blog posts).
At some point if these rights are continually infringed, people will stop designing things. Please explain how you expect this copyright-free society to work.
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by Anonymous Coward on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 8:32am
To sum up this riveting conversation:
"Money is STILL the root of all evil."
If we all lived in a society where everybody worked to the betterment of mankind and there was no money or greed to be concerned with, then everything would indeed be free and immediate and whatnot. The point it, as long as people think they can get something for nothing, there will always be a piracy problem. There is simply no way humanly possible to thwart it. I say just accept it, get on with your life, and continue producing original works worth buying. If it is worth buying, people will buy it. Maybe not as many as you would like, but they will.
Part of the problem with piracy is the difference in price. Do I think a CD is worth $18? Heck no. Would I say it's worth $10 or maybe even $12? Yes. Same goes for movies and software and all other digital content. How many people think Microsoft Office should cost hundreds of dollars? Not many. If software like that was capped at a maximum price of $200, people might think a lot differently about the whole pirating thing, because it would be much easier to believe that they're getting their money's worth from the product. If companies stopped being so greedy and started caring about giving the customer a worthwhile piece of content for a reasonable price, I think the situation would be quite a bit different than it is now.
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... by Namowrepus on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 8:40am
It's just a blog...not an essay...sometimes people try to read into things more than they should and this is a perfect example. You must just like to hear yourself talk...idiot.
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Re: I think Scott Adams is right by YouKnowNothing on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 8:48am
Copyright is a relatively new construct. Music, art, literature, etc. were around LONG before there was copyright, and they would still exist and new stuff would still be created if copyright was abolished. Why? Because true artists are compelled to do what they do by something inside them, and do it for the sheer sake of creating something.
Copyrights are also supposed to be for a limited time. In the United States I believe it was originally 14 years. I think 50 years from the time it is first put into a tangible medium is plenty of time, with an optional one-time renewal of 25 years.
Also, I think intellectual property should be subject to property tax, just like any other property.
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It's a new model by me on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 9:53am
If a company designs a new car, it costs them a lot of money, resources, etc. Those are one time costs. Reproducing the car costs much less, but the costs are still significant. Over time, the company will recoup their one time costs and make a profit on the car.
The music industry currently operates the same way. A band expends time and effort to create some new music. Those are the one time costs. The music was then reproduced either on vinyl, cassette or cd, distributed and sold. Those were the recurring costs.
This is the model of business that the RIAA has been trying to legislate into perpetuity just as they've managed to legislate copyrights into perpetuity. Many of their one time costs have been going down - studios are cheaper to build, more people have expertise in recording, etc. Their recurring costs have also been falling. What the web in general and p2p and mp3 and all of these other technologies have done though is drop thier recurring cost to just about zero.
I recall a quote somewhere that said "if you can't compete with free, you can't compete at all". What free duplication and distribution has done is created a disruptive shift in the business of monetizing music. Movies, books and software are also in line for this shift, but music is first. Software actually dealt with it once before.
What it means is that the old way of making money from music isn't viable anymore. The law should not be used to prop up an outmoded business model. I've talked to young bands that have new ideas. They distribute their music for free on the web. Their business model is to sell concert tickets, t-shirts, posters, and even some cd's. But instead of DRMing and crying about the pirates, they're using the free distribution pipeline to create a wide word of mouth style marketing strategy rather than the traditional big record contract method. They're realistic about the money they'll make and maybe that's the biggest difference...
The days of the multi-million dollar contract may be over. The days of big record companies may also be over. It's not to say that you can no longer make a fine living as a musician, you just might have to tone down your tastes from that Beverly Hills mansion and the Ferrari.
A new paradigm always brings pain for the old guard and opportunities for those wise enough to see them.
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Talking past each other by Fudouri on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 10:19am
Two sides seem to be talking past each other.
Scott Adam's Point: Piracy is bad as your taking something away from the creator. It should be the creators choice whether ot make it free or not.
Techdirts point: DRM is bad as a person should be allowed to legally do whatever they want with what they bought.
I think both sides can easily agree that if you bought something legally, you should be able to do what you want with it, but you should have bought it legally in the first place.
When you create the music. It should be up to you whether you want it spread for free or not. It should not be the choice of others. In the same vein. If someone has bought the mp3 of a song, it doesn't mean they have the right to copy it and give it to all their friends, it does mean that they can give that single copy of an mp3 to anyone they want (which current DRM would not allow).
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Re: DirtyTech by Mike on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 10:30am
So what happens if I, say, want to setup a web site named DirtyTech, which posts my views on technology. It also, of course, will include your articles word-for-word. After all, once they're are on the web they're "non-scarce" and can be replicated at will.
Yup. And as we've said repeatedly, we have no problem with people taking our content and reposting it. It's funny how many people come here, like yourself, and assume you've found some "gotcha." You haven't. There already are about 10 sites that copy Techdirt, post for post. Some of them give us credit. Some of them don't. We don't go after any of them.
Here's why:
1. None of those sites get any traffic. By itself, they offer nothing special.
2. If anything, it doesn't take people long to read those sites and figure out that the content is really from Techdirt. Then they just come here to the original source. So, it tends to help drive more traffic to us. That's cool.
3. As soon as the people realize the other sites are simply copying us, it makes those sites look really, really bad. If you want to risk your reputation like that, go ahead, but it's a big risk.
4. A big part of the value of Techdirt is the community here. You can't just replicate that.
5. Another big part of the value of Techdirt is that we, the writers, engage in the comments. You absolutely cannot fake that on your own site.
So, really, what's the purpose of copying our content, other than maybe driving a little traffic our way?
So, if you really want to, I'd suggest it's pretty dumb, but go ahead.
You might believe that with your content they would have been "your" customers, but any such claim of financial loss is obviously imaginary. After all, how could you, or anyone, know for sure?
You seem confused about our business model. We sign people up to provide them specific content *going forward*. In other words, that content is scarce before it's provided. Once that content is provided, we really don't care what's done with it. However, you can't replicate our ability to provide insight going forward. So go ahead. Copy all you want. Our business model is proofed against that, and about the only thing you'll do is either get more people interested in Techdirt... or make yourself look like a bunch of uncreative copycats. I don't see how that's beneficial for you, but if you want to try...
Since I often have problems thinking up topics, this seems like a good solution to me. Especially since I have no qualms about taking credit for someone else's work.
You misread what I said. I never said I have no qualms about taking credit for someone else's work. There's a very big cost if your caught. Your reputation (a scarce good) gets destroyed. I don't understand why you'd take the risk, but if you want to...
But then again, the amount of work you put into your articles and posts and reports is irrelevant, isn't it? IIRC, production costs have no bearing on content once it's been produced.
Again, you've misread our position. All of our past work simply helps promote our ability to do future work. So if you want to help promote our past work, PLEASE do. Thank you!
I'll be back to check your answer. I need to visit GoDaddy and see what domains are available...
How'd it go? Please let us know once you've set up the site.
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how about this analogy? by Anonymous Coward on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 10:52am
Instead of comparing ip to underwear, i have decided to start a website with my own advertising and business. The focus of the website will be all the techdirt articles. Each hour my website will mirror the articles and comments appearing on techdirt. I will of course credit techdirt for its hard work and labor, but will sell my other tech services around these articles. The reader will have no need to go to your site, because he will be able to read them on mine. You of course should have no problem with this, because you can compete with "even freer." And since im not really "stealing" anything from you, there is no problem right?
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Re: Re: I think Scott Adams is right by Flatulent MOnkey on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 10:54am
But in those times the ABILITY to copy was extremely limited due to lack of technology/means. Therefore the need for copyrights was probably not perceived.
Also don't overlook that most artists were paid for their (irreproducible). A "Patron of the Arts" was known as someone who paid for the privelege to enjoy an artist's work. And usually it was for a period of time and not just by piece.
So the "holier than thou" argument of doing it only for the love of creating doesn't really hold up so well.
Copyright is a relatively new construct. Music, art, literature, etc. were around LONG before there was copyright, and they would still exist and new stuff would still be created if copyright was abolished. Why? Because true artists are compelled to do what they do by something inside them, and do it for the sheer sake of creating something.
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Re: how about this analogy? by Anonymous Coward on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 10:55am
or maybe it can be packaged better, have a better search and index, then techclean.com can charge for access. of course there are some who will not realize they can get this for free, so they will pay techclean.com.
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Re: how about this analogy? by Mike on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 11:04am
Instead of comparing ip to underwear, i have decided to start a website with my own advertising and business. The focus of the website will be all the techdirt articles. Each hour my website will mirror the articles and comments appearing on techdirt. I will of course credit techdirt for its hard work and labor, but will sell my other tech services around these articles. The reader will have no need to go to your site, because he will be able to read them on mine. You of course should have no problem with this, because you can compete with "even freer." And since im not really "stealing" anything from you, there is no problem right?
Look at the comment right above yours. I already answered that. Go for it. It will backfire for a variety of reasons I explain above, but if you can make it work, go for it.
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Re: Re: how about this analogy? by Mike on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 11:07am
or maybe it can be packaged better, have a better search and index, then techclean.com can charge for access. of course there are some who will not realize they can get this for free, so they will pay techclean.com.
Yup. Go for it. If you can do a better search and index that will just encourage us to improve our search.
As for charging for the stuff we're giving away for free, good luck with that. But, if you can make it work, good for you. Thing is, people will soon figure out that we're offering that content for free (and faster) and that we're also involved in the discussion (which wouldn't be the case for what you sell) and then you're going to have some *very* angry customers on your hands. I'm not sure why you'd want to risk that, but it's your business decision to make.
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Re: by Petréa Mitchell on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 11:43am
If you think that's bad, check out the last chapter of The Dilbert Future. (Unless you're easily angered by pseudoscience, in which case, please just forget you ever read this comment.)(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
Re: artists vs. piracy? by Wyndle on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 11:58am
To further your case, Metallica benefited from unauthorized distribution of their songs. When they were first starting up, they sent a demo tape to several places and at least one of them made copies to pass out to friends. By the time they got thier first club show they had a huge fanbase. Metallica had rabid fans before they released an album or performed live due to unauthorized distribution. With P2P and bittorrent, their example could go into hyperdrive in today's world.
Another point in favor of your case. An unsigned band recorded a CD on their home equipment and one of their friends leaked a copy to the local radio station. One of their songs got played by accident and by the end of the month that band had a record deal. I don't want to name any names in this case to protect certain persons.
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Re: Those who live in glass houses. by His Shadow on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 1:22pm
Pointing out that someone is confused is not an emotional argument.
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Adams blogs for publicity by Anonymous Coward on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 1:23pm
I think Scott Adams blogs to start comment wars that end up getting his site and him publicity. After all, he offers his own book Gods' Debris in e-book form for free and encourages you to distribute it to your friends. Seems to me Scott Adams follows TechDirts line of thinking in using non-scarce resources, the e-book, to promote a non-scarce resource, his reputation.
This makes sense, since he makes quite a bit of money from speaking engagements, and not just from dilbert merchandise.
I got that he was more concerned about the ability to control what happens to creative content after it is out of the creators hands, rather than the monetary aspect. However that would be a strange extra right for owners of intellectual property seeing as how people who create physical products do not have the same right.
In regards to the comment about a lack of copyright in the past, few arts were for mass consumption in the past. Theatrical arts were consumed by the most number of people, and stealing other people's works word for word was abundant. That was offset though by the fact that in most countries public theatres had to have permission from a government agent to operate so there was still a source of artificial scarcity imposed by law.
In the end, intellectual property is an artifice of government, so laws governing it need to take into account all people, not just those at the top. Those who claim to have a right to complete control over their creative work, and those who claim a right to partake of others creative work are ridiculous and should be laughed at. It's fine to debate the issue, but it is not an issue of rights or morality. It is an issue of policy that should take into account the views of the people. If the people of the United State want to scrap intellectual property completely or strengthen it or adjust it, it is the duty of the lawmakers to do so even if they think it is the wrong decision, because intellectual property is not a right, it is not enumerated in the constitution or Bill of Rights.
The largest problem in the issue of intellectual property right now is the perception that intellectual property laws were written for an elite group of people who held sway, legally or illegally it doesn't matter, over lawmakers and ignored the will of the people at whose discretion the government is allowed to exist. One of the principles in the declaration of independence is that people have not just a right, but an obligation to rebel when the government oversteps its authority. This not an endorsement of breaking the law, but an observation that I believe is a major force behind it. We are not a country that blindly follows the rule of law.
In the end, the attempts to strengthen intellectual property laws are what I think has caused a lot of the backlash against it. Bad analogy time: If there's enough beer at a party for everyone to have two beers, and a guy grabs three for himself without asking anyone if he can have their beer, he gets beat up.
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Re: Get a life by His Shadow on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 1:31pm
That's a nice defense, but it's garbage, commonly used by Usenet trolls to deflect criticism of a particularly insipid or stupid train of thought.
"I was only kidding" or "lighten up, I'm just trying to piss you off".
The fact that you are employing this defense of Scott's ineffectual analogies indicates you know it's crap.
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Re: "Intelligent and thoughtful" by His Shadow on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 1:33pm
"I enjoy the strip and read it to this day, but I learned a long time ago not to pay much attention to what comes out of Adams' mouth."
AOL
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All these analogies... by Sanguine Dream on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 1:51pm
I'm all for trying to simplify a situation in order to help people understand but copyright infringment analogies have gotten to the point where the analogy itself becomes the topic of discussion instead of what the analogy was trying to simplify.
If someone would clear up all these analogies I think people would have a much better understanding of copyright infringment.
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Oops, whoa, dude. I've soiled your breeches. by rEdEyEz on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 2:34pm
...But fear not, as the original content remains intact, and credit is given where due.
As consolation, my accidental/unintended contribution, (when viewed in the absence of emotion), ultimately serves you - as an affirmation; as a true measure of your generosity.
I have not sullied your reputation, but in your stead, I have garnered and reinforced future support for your continued success.
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by Anonymous Coward on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 3:35pm
Dirtytech sounds really wrong... i dunno bout you guys but i certainly wouldnt visit there...
however if that person made a site lets say: Tech-dirtz and just replicated the stories here... but pimped out the visual layout
hell yeah i would visit that...
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Re: Re: Get a life by Dale on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 5:14pm
Thanks for pointing out my behaviour might be likened to that of a usenet troll. That is a compelling argument on your part. For the record: YOU are agreeing with ME, that Scotts statement was crap designed to find what insects will come swarming around the stink. And now you and me are buzzing about it. :-)
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by RandomThoughts on Apr 17th, 2007 @ 5:40pm
Mike, I know I am late to this party, but I am in New Jersey and have been bailing water out of my garage since yesterday. I usually don't promote products, but Lowes sells a 16 gallon wet/dry vac that you can hook up a garden hose to and pump water out. Comes in handy when you have a 1,000 gallons of water in your basement. Don't have to empty the tank. I would have got the 20 gallon model, but they were out.
Anyway, The poster that asked you if you would mind “stealing” articles from Techdirt asked the wrong question. The question that should have been asked is “Would you be OK with me signing up for your corporate intelligence feeds and then posting your feeds and analysis on my website where I can either give free access or charge for it?”
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Re: by Mike on Apr 18th, 2007 @ 2:03am
Anyway, The poster that asked you if you would mind “stealing” articles from Techdirt asked the wrong question. The question that should have been asked is “Would you be OK with me signing up for your corporate intelligence feeds and then posting your feeds and analysis on my website where I can either give free access or charge for it?”
RandomThoughts, I saw you posted the same thing to your blog, and I responded there. I think you misunderstand our business. We do not provide general "feeds" for clients. We provide custom analysis for each client based on their specific needs. Often, the analysis is so custom that it isn't particularly useful to others.
We have no problem if our clients post the content we provide them publicly. In fact, if that helps promote what we've done for them, that's great. They pay us to create custom analysis, and we do so. Once we're paid, why should we care what they do with the content?
However, while you're interested, if you would like to become a client, please do let us know, and we'll see if we can help provide analysis for you.
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Re: Re: by Mike on Apr 18th, 2007 @ 2:06am
where I can either give free access or charge for it
Oh, I should add that we've had clients that charge for access to our content as well. For a while (though, this is no longer the case) we had one of our customers who was reselling our content along with some of their own content, and they made quite a bit of money on it. We did fine ourselves -- and we actually got more business out of it. When those clients found out the content originally came from us and we do custom work, they came to us to see if we could do more custom work for their specific situations, rather than the stuff they were getting from our other customer.
Worked out great for us.
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Your entire argument... by Analogy Police on Apr 18th, 2007 @ 8:32am
You offer an analogy: "If I buy a chair, I can go ahead and build a new chair and resell it. This is how the fasion industry works"
This analogy is flawed: When you build a new chair, you have created something of value. You need materials, you need time and labor to create it. Once you sell it you no longer have it, and must build a new one to sell it again. You aren't allowed to put the same label on it as the original, because you didn't design it.
If you upload an MP3 ripped from a cd you bought to a file sharing site, you have created nothing of value, yet you have removed the value from the original owner. The owner no longer has the ability to sell that thing, because an exact copy is available for free... and you can keep doing that forever, you have no resources to lose when you do it again.
You must be confused.
There, I've used your entire argument to debunk your own argument. See how useless your article is?
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Fashion Industry as an Analogy by Misanthropic Scott on Apr 18th, 2007 @ 8:42am
You said, "this is pretty much how the fashion industry works". Sort of. Actually, this is exactly how numerous lawsuits in the fashion industry are started. Not being a copyright owner myself, but recognizing the value in the creativity of others, I must say that your logic leads you to be a common thief. Nothing more. Just a thief. If that's OK with you, fine. But, at least do not be a hypocrite as well.
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No win situation by Calvin on Apr 18th, 2007 @ 8:55am
I don't think you are ever going to get everyone on the same page on this topic. How about this as a start...
If I researched, designed and built a chair, I have the right to sell it to anyone, in anyway I please. It makes good business sense for me to sell that chair for enough to at least make my original and recurring costs back, but I can do it for less, even free, that's my choice. The buyer of that chair also has a choice, they can keep it, use it, burn it, or even sell it. But once they sell it, they don't have it anymore, it's been transferred. I am not bothered by that, I have been compensated for 1 chair and there is 1 chair out there, whoever has it. That's fair, that's consumerism, love it or hate it. Now, if the first buyer had the ability to exactly replicate my chair, via magic wand or some other low cost solution, they did not buy the right to distribute any more than the 1 they bought. It is colorfull commentary at best, that if they distribute *my* chairs that I eventually profit from it. That wasn't what they bought. They bought 1 chair. I am not entitled to tell them what they do with that chair, who they can let sit in the chair, give it away to, or even if they paint it or anything similar. They can even disect the chair, and build one thats errily similar. As long as it doesn't cross the line of duplication, they are within their rights. I would be within my rights to allow or even encourage use of the magic wand to distribute my chairs, heck it might help promote them, and sell more. But it's my right to sell the product as 'for distribution' or 'not for distribution' not the buyer, and it's the buyer's to say if they should support a seller that doesn't fall in line with their free chair philosphy.
Now I am sure that critics will argue the magic wand and that wood for chairs isn't free, but those aren't the point. The point is that when companies are selling you music/software, they do so with the intention for you to be the consumer and/or one-time re-seller, not the distributor. If you wanted to be a distributor, it's your choice, but you should present yourself as such and see if they want your business.
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Re: Re: Re: DirtyTech by chris on Apr 18th, 2007 @ 9:25am
It doesn't matter why I might not want other people to read it, it's my paper and I can do what I want with it.
and that sort of juvenile thinking is why the music industry is killing itself.
if you need to keep control of something for the sake of control, especially when that control is detrimental to your continued success, then you deserve to fail.
in fact, the sooner you and "artist" like your self fail, the sooner artists who will give us what we want can have the opportunity to succeed.
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by Laughing-Fry on Apr 18th, 2007 @ 9:45am
I don't think your argument is entirely valid, either. Take your chair example: if I build a chair, and someone likes it, and they take the trouble to study it, buy building materials, learn chair-making well enough to build it, and then build a copy for themselves, that's still a substantial amount of effort, and I don't care if they market that. With music, this would be like writing a cover of a song. Someone else may have written it, but it still takes time and money to buy/rent an instrument, learn how to play it in general, and then learn how to play that song.
What's going on in the copyright industry is more like I build a chair, then someone comes up with a cloning machine, starts handing it out free to other people, and then all those people come up, zap my chair with their cloning machine, and walk off with a chair that they've neither paid for or worked for in any way.
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disagree by Mike on Apr 18th, 2007 @ 9:51am
We talk about songs that get "played out" in the same way that underwear gets worn out. Great works of art are not as common as sports posters... etc. Adams is talking about the point of distribution control. If you're selling a chair, you might not have contorl over whether somebody else can resell it. However, if your chair design is patented, then you can stop somebody from simply copying your design. Similairly, you do get to choose who you sell the chair to in the first place. Under your assumptions, all artists would produce work, and then never gat paid for producing any work, becuase if they sold one copy of the song, or poster, or piece of art, it would immediabtely be available for free distribution all over. How its this logical?
I agree that as a consumer I would LOVE to have access to all the latest songs, movies, and various types of downloadable content. Just becuase I would enjoy ownership and use of other's property doesn't mean I am given that right.
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by Huzzak on Apr 18th, 2007 @ 10:02am
It is great that you don't care if people duplicate and distribute your content freely, but why should you be able to decide what to do with the things that other people have created? Do you really believe that if the music industry could make more money by distributing its content for free that they wouldn't do that? What exactly is the motivation of this greedy, money-hungry business?
I guess it is a question of your right to get things for free vs. their right to make money (or, I guess, foolishly lose money) off of the things that they make.
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Re: by Ur Face on Apr 18th, 2007 @ 10:58am
(Let's assume this is a wood chair that is not created by a mold) Because the chair you replicate will not be an exact copy - it will have your own improvements and imperfections all over it. If you were to replicate a CD, but add in your own voice overs, talking before and after songs etc, well then, now it's your art and you can do whatever you like.
The CD's you are talking about however, are exact copies and are therefore someone elses art - which is not yours to distribute as you see fit.
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IP by Pierre on Apr 18th, 2007 @ 11:13am
Here is a good reason why intellectual property should be protected.
As a software developer, there is nothing I would like better than to turn out the highest quality software, as long as I could be compensated for it.
Does anyone really think that the millions of lines of code that went into a typical major application is worth the piddling $100+ the consumer pays for it?
Let's start with a basic premise: quality is worth money. I'm sure we agree that a Hyundai (or whatever passes for a cheap car in your neighbourhood) costs less than a Porsche or BMW because the Porsche is better designed and better built. Better design means more experienced and brilliant engineers, more talented designers; better built means more skilled and dedicated assembly-line workers. All these people demand more money. Hence the Porsche company commands a higher price for their Carreras, 911s, whatever.
The same should be true of software. If a company invests great care in desiging a better operating system, or a better word processor, that never crash, and always have helpful help and meaningful error messages, how much do you think that would be worth? I'll give you a hint: the military do in fact get top-quality software for their jets and rockets. They get software that almost never fails, and does exactly what it is designed to do.
Do you know how much this software costs? $50 per line of code.
Translating into everyday terms, a bullet-proof operating system would cost you, at a rough guess, $5,000 per copy.
Now I have no doubt some people would be happy to pay $5,000 for a stable OS. However, there are many people who couldn't afford this amount.
(Yes, I know Linux is free. Having struggled with it for the past couple of years, I can tell you first hand it's not consumer-ready.)
So what would happen? In any other field (automobiles, stereos, TVs, restaurant meals, housing) people who can't afford quality just put up with less and shut up.
But in the software field... well, they just make a copy of someone else's software, and enjoy the full benefit of top-of-the-line quality, without paying for it. I wager even you couldn't resist obtaining a $5,000 OS for free.
How long do you think a software company would last if their product cost millions to make, and they only sold a few copies at $5,000? Why they would go broke, of course.
This is the crux of the software dilemna: except in a few specialized cases (commercial or embedded software), the maximum price for software is the monetary equivalent of the nuisance value of duplicating it.
In consumer software, this is in the range of $19-$29.
The digital world turns the economics of quality upside-down: in traditional models where quality is supported by price, the market pays the price if it wants the quality.
In the digital model, a perfect copy of the merchandise costs virtually nothing, and undercuts the legitimate market, putting a cap on the maximum that can be charged for a product.
There is a built-in limit to how much time, effort and expense a company can invest into a mass-produced product. This cap is equivalent to the "nuisance value" defined above. It is not reasonable for the consumer to expect warranties and liabilities that go way beyond what the manufacturer receives from sales of the product.
The music and movie industry are wrestling with the consequences of easy digital duplication. They have taken a different route to protecting their intellectual property.
I challenge anyone to come up with a business model where the software developer that invests great expense in building a quality product, can obtain full compensation from the market segment that values his quality.
Whose fault is it anyway? Simple: it's the consumer who copies and pirates software that forces the price down and therefore the quality to remain low. Any analysis that does not take this into account is simplistic.
It is naïve to think that most developers are not struggling to make ends meet and stay in business (Microsoft notwithstanding).
The advent of Web- and subscription-based software models promises to turn things around by making it impractical to copy software. Time will tell.
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dodgy chair analogy by jon on Apr 18th, 2007 @ 11:43am
The chair analogy works better as:
suppose you had a machine which could exactly replicate some physical object like a chair. Imagine that you saw a really nice chair that you wanted but it cost money. So you borrow one from a friend/from the creator/from some library. Then you replicate it and return the original. THe creator doesn't get compensated at all but you still get the product.
It's still not exactly the same as Adams original point. Ultimately it comes down to this:
We live in a capitalist society,
People create to be compensated
If you want to consume it you pay for it
If you want to create for free you don't charge
If you want to consume it you donn't pay
Don't confuse the two modes of creation. i.e. it's not up to the consumer to force a creator who wants to be paid to give their stuff away for free.
If you only want to consume free stuff, only consume the free stuff, don't consume the stuff that requires compensation. You shouldn't mind not getting content from people who want paying because you're supporting an ideal and they'll get the idea when everyone agrees with you.
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dumbass by Andrew on Apr 18th, 2007 @ 12:46pm
Adams just posted a rebuttle to this article today. I suggest you check it out.
Oh, by the way, I just copied and pasted this into my own personal blog and took credit for it. Too bad you don't believe in copywrite violations.
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Your poor analogy by Lyon_Lee on Apr 18th, 2007 @ 1:21pm
Creating a chair and ripping and burning a CD or DVD is completely different. If you physically built a chair (no matter who designed it, original or stolen) you've put it together with your own hands. You've paid for the physical pieces of wood. But when you're copying an intangible form, such as music, you're not going out and getting a band together, writing a song nearly identical to the original piece. You're taking the data on a disc and copying it to another disc. Hell, you wouldn't have even written the program that allowed you to copy the disc, it would come with the computer you bought.
Now, personally, I don't have that big a problem with filesharing, and strangely enough, I don't have that big a problem with copy-protection software either(as long as it doesn't screw up my computer). I've never downloaded gobs of gigs onto my hard drive because I really like a song. If I ever come across a band I particularly enjoy, I might.
In fact, occasionally I hate Copy-Protection software, because it inevitably prevents me in some small way of enjoying the music I purchased, i.e. burning it into a playlist onto a CD, since I don't have an iPod, or even copying it onto my computer where I listen to everything.
But for the first time, through Scott Adams's post, I saw the other side of the argument. Yes, his underwear analogy was bad, perhaps even slightly disgusting, but mostly humorous, but the argument surrounding the analogy had merit. That's what you should be focusing on in his piece. Not his drawers.
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by Steve on Apr 18th, 2007 @ 2:22pm
Throughout all this people have primarily been focusing on problems in the applicability of the analogies be it cloning chairs or borrowing underware. The point of the copywrite is not to restrict my personal use of something you have purchased but rather to stop an individual from purchasing something and then reproducing an identical product and distributing it without the artists consent.
If I go purchase a book and then proceed to copy it onto my computer and release it to the WWW it is still not my work even though I put in my effort to trasfer it into a digital medium. I really havent stolen any thing from the author because maybe none of the people who recieve the e-book would ever have purchased a print edition, or maybe I acctually helped the author because some of the new audience which now has access to the work acctually admire it enough that they purchase the copy. But, it is not anyone's descision other than the author(or whoever owns the rights to the work) to realease the work to that audience.
If I recieve a DVD rip of 300 for example, burn copies of it, then go and hand them out to random people it cannot reasonably be argued that that distribution is not taking something away from list of individuals and companies who that the concept of that film and turn it into the product which you can then legally purchase off of some store's shelf. Sure they will still make money from the units which they sell but those people who I gave essentially an exact copy are not going to go purchase it and therefore I have taken something tangible away from the people who created that product which I reproduced.
You have a right to decide to distribute your product for free or allow those who purchase it to redistribute it as they see fit. In that case you make the income to support yourself and your family through other means such as advertising. But, if I chose to release my work or product as its own means of creating my source of income it is my right, not someelse's who obtained my work, to decide what is done with it.
Certianly there are problems with many DRM methods in use today, but that is not an excuse to say that becuase what someone decides to protect there work with is messed up gives you the right to steal that work.
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Re: Is it a crime? Is it victimless? by Pyce on Apr 18th, 2007 @ 2:42pm
Umm - I'm a Dilbert fan and read Scott Adams' blog daily so yes I'm a bit biased.
I'm here only because he had the link in todays blog but as long as I'm here I felt I should help you guys out.
"What is wrong with me printing off a dilbert cartoon and sticking it on the wall of my cubicle? If you think I should pay for the right to do that, then how can you quote other peoples works or use other people's cartoon ideas without ALSO paying them for their contribution?"
Answer: Nothing, Answer given by Scott Adams: Nothing. Scott actually says on REPEATED occasions that he does not oppose personal use like that.
If you're going to argue against his arguments then go nuts (he encourages it) but at least try to stick to the facts and argue against what he says and not what you hallucinate his opinion is.
Ironically this fits the exact saying that he write the other day.
I agree with your analysis of your hallucination.
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Wow... by Luna on Apr 18th, 2007 @ 3:38pm
Could you have been pickier about this? Seriously, to write a whole rant on that is just crazy.
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Entertainment by freeWilliam on Apr 18th, 2007 @ 5:24pm
Not sure you caught the point of Scotts blog.
Scott Adams post is for entertainment. It is amusing, his wildly inaccurate analogies are part of his entertainment value.
What he does achieve is to get people thinking and talking about the issues involved in topics that are worthwhile whilst entertaining them. that beats dull blogging any day... (look at the number of comments he gets and you may see the point)
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Re: Re: DirtyTech by freeWilliam on Apr 18th, 2007 @ 5:41pm
"even if you told me to stop handing out your paper, a rational argument would be "why not? it's a great paper! why don't you want people to read it?""
And one rational answer may be "I have changed my opinion based on new research and you are causing me humiliation by distributing that crap".
To claim you are doing someone a favour by distributing their intellectual property for free is self serving bullshit.
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Copyright by Barney on Apr 18th, 2007 @ 6:29pm
It's entirely different to whittle a chair out of a lump of wood. Thus copying someone elses work.
Than to press "copy" on your CD burner. or "Scan" on your scanner.
One requires work and effort, equivilant - if lacking the artisitc flair of the original. The other can be done by a trained monkey.
Leaning forward on your fat ass to press "burn" costs less than producing an album.
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Re: by JCz on Apr 18th, 2007 @ 10:55pm
if there is some kind of copyright on the chair you can defnitly not replicate and sell it for profit - same as with the cd why are some people do not understand that copying and selling a cd is something like stealing. Maybe they just should produce a cd on their own and watch as others duplicate and sell ...(reply to this comment) (link to this comment)
Re: Re: DirtyTech by frntk on Apr 18th, 2007 @ 11:25pm
Maybe the best way to setup this analogy is not talking about a site, say DirtyTech, which people will not "use" in the same way they would "use" TechDirt - because they eventually find out that it's not the real thing... and they care about it, so they go to the original source.
So put it this way and let us know what you think: Instead of setup DirtyTech, I set up a site which people will use in the *exact* same way they would use the original one. I know the analogy breaks a little here, because of authors participating in the discussion, etc. but the point is that if users/buyers/listeners/whatever would use the copy instead of the original, and they don't care about it... then you start losing.
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Re: DirtyTech by chris on Apr 17th... by ExceptThat on Apr 18th, 2007 @ 11:40pm</