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PRS Threatens Woman For Playing Radio To Her Horses Without Paying A Licensing Fee
from the this-is-called-extortion dept
When I was in the UK recently, I was surprised to hear just how much most folks hate PRS -- the collections society in charge of getting various businesses to pay for playing music. PRS is also the group that has caused music videos to be pulled from YouTube after demanding much more money than was economically feasible. But, where PRS really shines is in threatening tons of small businesses. Over the years, we've had stories on PRS threatening car repair shops, because mechanics in the garage were playing their radios loud enough that customers in the waiting room could hear them. That's a public performance, according to PRS. Then they went after a police station because some cops were listening to radios. Then they went after a children's charity for singing Christmas carols without paying up. The group has even been known to call up small businesses and if they hear music in the background, demand payment, including one case involving a guy working at home with his dog. Apparently, that constitutes a "public performance."
The latest (sent in by a few folks) is that PRS has now threatened a woman who plays classical music to her horses in her stable to keep them calm. She had been turning on the local classical music station, saying that it helped keep the horse calm -- but PRS is demanding £99 if she wants to keep providing such a "public performance." And it's not just a one-off. Apparently a bunch of stables have been receiving such calls.
Obviously, this is not a case of random excessive attempts by PRS to squeeze more money out of people. It's become systematic. The group seems to believe that playing music in almost any situation now constitutes a public performance and requires a licensing fee. You just know they're salivating over the opportunity to go after people playing music in their cars with the windows down.
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Disturbing trend
Often, it seems the UK is the country of choice where the fascist oligarchs run trial balloons before taking them mainstream.
I hope people wake up.
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Why not make radios illegal? They are the cause of all these criminal acts after all.
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WTF
I'm waiting until they decide to go after homes with radios because they may be heard by burglars who break in.
To clarify, the PRS is going after the stables because they employ more than 2 people not because of the horses. Still seems kinda stupid to me; how many families have a mother, father, and 2.5 children?
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So if a song is played in a stable, and no one is around to hear it, is it really a performance? Apparently so.
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Re:
Heck, why stop with radios? Computers, TVs, fax machines, books, copiers, and movie theaters, libraries and hearing aids should all banned. Including ears, mouths, and eyes.
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Playing the Radio for a Horse, of Course
Obviously, horses have the same rights and privileges as people now. This is great!
Following this logic, it won't be long until horses at the local petting zoo are ticketed and added to the sex offender list for public defecation!
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Wither WH?
Where is WeirdHarold? Last time this topic came up, he couldnt wait to chime in on the side of the copyright holders over the good of society or even anything remotely resembling reasonable rates.
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Re: Wither WH?
yah, I fully expected that fat bastard to be all over this.
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How Can
How anybody could ever possibly defend this group as being good these days is beyond me. I think you need to be lacking in the mental dept to think these guys care about anything other than the money.
With as many people as they have tried to push around in the UK, aren't the citizens able to have the government do something? Or is their government over there as bought out as ours is on this side of the pond?
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Whoaa Nelly
This does seem a bit excessive. It seems pretty silly to force the courts to define what a public performance is, but with abuses like this, it may end up being necessary. I wonder if this means that I owe royalties for sharing ear buds with friends?
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Re:
Doesn't the radio station already pay a license for this? It sounds like double dipping. If they were playing from a CD, it'd be slightly less unreasonable, but the radio station presumably already pays for the performance rights to broadcast the music. Does each worker/horse need their own radio then?
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Re: Whoaa Nelly
Absolutely!
Remember, in the US anyway, it took the NII Copyright Protection Act of 1995 to fully de-criminalize making mixtapes at home.
The more I read about the history of the music industry, the more I realize it's absolutely not about money, but maintaining control.
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Remember...
...that in the US, a single person watching a TV set that's larger than 52" constitutes a "public performance".
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She runs a business (horse stable) with 2 employees. Paying for a license is the law in England. PRS is government run. What do you expect?
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Support
PRS is probably finacially supported by bonus money from Wall Street! :)
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I'm assuming that the radio station has already paid for a license to play the music in the first place. If so, aren't these guys trying to license the same "public performance" multiple times?
I mean, is it a "public performance" if each of her 4 employees had their own radio all playing the same station?
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They're just helping the musicians make money. Is not as if the horses will pay for that CD otherwise, is it?
Just joking, PRS is hilarious.
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OMG!!1!!1
Think of the children!! What will they think if they know that horses listen to music!! We must rise up and ask - neigh - demand that our children be protected by outlawing the playing of music where livestock might hear...
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stupid question....
isn't classical music in the public domain?
is it still necessary to pay a license if it is a "public performance"?
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Perhaps they should push to ban the ownership of radios with built in speakers? Earbud only radios would stop these illegal public performances.
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The more I read about the history of the music industry, the more I realize it's absolutely not about money, but maintaining control.
It could be said - that the harder you squeeze, the more will sift through your fingers... :)
It's ok - eventually the market will 'respond'.
Question too - what IF I was say - standing somewhere and heard music from an open-air concert - wouldn't the venue where the music is being played, be liable for a 'public performance' if people outside of the ticket-payers hear it?
What about nightclubs? Why aren't they going after them - people on the street can hear music.
Come on PRS - get them all!!
People on buses with headphones - I can hear those sometimes.
Jukeboxes playing loud - can sometimes walk by a bar and hear it.
Elevator music? Music in shopping stores? What about music being played on a TV in someone's house and another person passes by?
I'm curious too - do they have music on hold on their phone switch? (PRS) if they do - and I call them and put it on speakerphone - aren't they liable as well for a 'public performance'?
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PRS, ASCAP: pretty funny way to spell 'evil'
This sounds like the typical shenanigans of ASCAP here in the states. I managed nightclubs between 1991 and 1994. One particular nightclub received all of its music through pools and label service, that is, music specifically provided by record labels for the purpose of getting rotation in the club market.
An ASCAP rep came nosing around that club one night, asking the DJ the names of a few different tracks. Sure enough, a letter from ASCAP showed up in the mail a few days later, requesting an exorbitant licensing fee. I knew where this club stood in terms of legality of public performance, so I told the rep he could cram it. He first made noise about legal action and I responded that he could then tell the artists and labels he supposedly represents why those pieces of music were no longer making onto playlists in this market.
A funny thing happened: the "license" fees kept dropping. A series of letters offered to "settle this matter" for decreasing amounts of money, from initial ~$1200/mo down to about $5/week. And then finally he went away when it was obvious there was just no money coming.
Not to belabor the obvious or otherwise preach to the choir, but these performance licensing organizations truly have about next to nothing to do with protecting the artist.
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Re: stupid question....
The music is public domain, but oftentimes the performance will be copyrighted. For instance... if the Boston Orchestra performed something by Bach, the original Bach music would be public domain... but the recording by the Boston Orchestra could be "protected."
silly, eh?
Basically public domain means the Boston Orchestra didn't have to pay royalties... that's it.
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Another question - PRS seems to be in violation of copyright law on their own web page....
This is purely an excerpt [sic] from their page:
Internationally renowned chip tune musician Pixelh8 makes his music from reprogramming vintage computer systems such as the ZX Spectrum, Commodore 64 and Game Boy. His unique blend of electronica has taken him across the globe, performing at Microdisco in Berlin, Apple iTunes...
http://www.prsfoundation.co.uk/guestofthemonth/index.htm
I do not see any note of those 'brand names' showing as trademarks of their respective companies, nor do they mention anything about that - can they just use those names without permission? I thought they were trademarked?
Seems it would be hard to get permission from the 'Commodore' corporation - but are those trademarks still good? Not even sure if they exist - but Apple most certainly does - hasn't Apple sued for exactly this before?
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Fffff
Will someone call them up, tell them to Ffffff off and while doing that, have some music playing in the background...
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As a matter of fact - on their 'legal' page - they CLAIM the text on the web page is THEIRS - would that include brand names such as the above - particularly when they do not site that those are NOT their trademarks/copyrights or even mention they are used with permission?
Quote:
The text, PRS Foundation logo, and graphical elements on this website (the "Site") are Copyright © 2001-2008 The Performing Right Society Foundation. All rights reserved.
At least - one could be led to believe that, correct?
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Re: Re: stupid question....
Good point!
But remember, many modern-day recording contracts have a clause that during the term of the contract, any performance you give is property of the label, even if you maintain ownership of the lyrics.
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I swear this organisation just consists of one very bored employee and a copy of the business yellow pages.
What comes after 'Stables'?
'Stationary Shops'?
But yes, we all hate the PRS. As Douglas Adams put it; "...a bunch of mindless jerks who'll be the first against the wall when the revolution comes."
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Re: Re: Wither WH?
You know, this simplistic baiting is just beneath all of you. I happen to have a relatively height-weight proportionate build, so referring to me as a fat ba*tard is really not only unkind, but inaccurate. I am not fat.
As to the horse issue, don't get into such a lather! It should be obvious that the owner of the horses is gaining more than the traditional value from the radio play. Her horses are getting a form of therapy, if you will, and this has value far beyond just the "listening to music" variety. If the owner had to find some other form of treatment for her horses, you can bet it would cost a pretty penny.
In this case, she is benefiting from free horse-therapy, and meanwhile we can safely assume that the benefit - namely advertising revenue - to those who are providing this service is being lost on horses who, even if they understood the advertisements and wanted to buy, couldn't... due to the lack of opposable thumbs with which to pony up their debit card.
So, why the long faces? Just accept the fact that these licensing bodies have the right to collect a fair sum for a fair service. Here, have an apple.
wh
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Policy
Can't really say I hate PRS. Seems to be a faceless, nameless (not to metion mindless) entity. Gotta wonder who sets the policy? And if the policy is successful. Or is this the last gasp of an industry being forced to change it's business model. How long can you sue your customers?
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Re: Re: Re: Wither WH?
Comments not made by me.
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What about the horses?
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What about the horses?
Who will represent the horses? Oh the poor horses, have they no rights? Outlaw music in all forms, that will solve the problem.
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Horses
Ahh You can smell the smoldering discontent just below the surface.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Wither WH?
Comments claiming to not be from me, are not from me.
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Moving to Britian!!!!!!!!!
Obviously it'll then be legal to marry horses and I can finally accomplish my life-long dream of being a douchebag like these guys in the PRS!!
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Re:
fuck you
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Horses
Get me the shovel Martha, The smoldering discontent is getting deeper.
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But Weird Harold you should be defending this aggressive use of copyright law. It's right up your alley!
Cheers
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This again raises the question: why should people have to pay a license to play the radio? The music has already been licensed. It is being broadcast indiscriminately. So basically a guy listens to a radio in his car, and then walks into a business and hears the same station and all of a sudden that is a new public performance?
What if a business had an individual radio for each person in the store...is it still a public performance then? Why not just charge people every day they wake up, because they will inevitably hear music that day? (In addition to charging radio stations and businesses, of course.)
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End Game
The final solution is to charge each and every person(or horse) a fee for each and every time they hear a song or(insert any activity here). Knowing that it will be impossible to track each event, then the governing body will impose a recurring tax like fee on every individual to compensate. This fee, for lack of a better word, will be used to support organizations like PRS for other legal challenges that may come up.
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Re: Re: Whoaa Nelly
yes, but maintaining control IS all about money.
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Re: End Game
I have no doubt that they would absolutely love to do that if they could find a way to get away with it.
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tax the air
I believe some big name British group sang about taxing the air.
Most of these fees go to the groups collecting the fee and the top artists. There is seldom anything left for the artists that really need the money.
If people would quit playing the music of the artists that make the most noise for the fee collection groups then the problem would disappear.
Some small time artist should get somebody to play just their music all day for one day, pay the the fees and see if they get a payment. If they don't then sue the collection agency.
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Re: Re: Re: Wither WH?
lmao..."In this case, she is benefiting from free horse-therapy, and meanwhile we can safely assume that the benefit - namely advertising revenue - to those who are providing this service is being lost on horses who, even if they understood the advertisements and wanted to buy, couldn't... due to the lack of opposable thumbs with which to pony up their debit card."
People might rag on your comments, but I thought that was hilarious. I do sense a bit of sarcasm as well so hopefully that is the case.
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PRS calling ...
I often wondered about the calls I frequently get where no one says anything - just silence. I now guess that it is the PRS or equivalent, listening for music in the background. It would be interesting to troll them with some piano work of my own.
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Not meaning to beat a dead horse.
Maybe the horses should be paid for the use of the horse hair bows used in the production of the music.
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There is something about those Anglo-Saxons
Everone knows about those cute Irish cottages, with small windows? Right? Reason they are small windows is because in the "olden days" the Brits would tax the occupants of a cottage based on the amount of light they received from the windows: Thus, small windows. There is something about those Brits.
Somewhat related: In my state, the state claims to own the rain water and has laws against individuals collecting rain for personal storage.
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From the UK here
The PRS has threatened hairdressers, mechanics and sole traders.
A third of our wages go to the government, and 2/3 rds of what we pay for petrol goes to the government - in fact, everything we buy, the government also gets a cut of, they've even started introducing toll roads even though we pay over £100 a year on road tax.
Even if you have no running water, they still demand payment for rain water running off your roof into the gutter. We pay over £100 a year on a TV tax, about £300 a year on 'council' tax.
With all this money pouring into their coffers (as well as being bitches to the corporations) it's kind'a astounding that NuLabour have still managed to bring this once great country to the brink of ruin; billions spent on failed projects and insane database designs and ... well, just mad stuff, anti terrorist laws that councils now use to fine dog owners for allowing their pets to foul pavements, camera everywhere that do nothing to protect anyone...
Argh........
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Re: PRS, ASCAP: pretty funny way to spell 'evil'
I suspect that, in common with the UK, your "collectors" are paid solely on commission - the more fear they can strike into a business, the higher the settlement and the greater their paycheque. (paycheck)
When I worked in the basement of a computer shop repairing machines I witnessed a couple of roaming self-employed "enforcement officers" arguing whether or not they could send a summons because they heard a burst of the radio when I opened the door to come out to talk to them. There was a definite hint of desperation in their voices.
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Re: There is something about those Anglo-Saxons
> he Brits would tax the occupants of a cottage based on the
> amount of light they received from the windows: Thus, small
> windows.
When I was a kid, my grandparents lived in Berkeley, California, and there was a huge eucalyptus tree in their backyard. One night during a thunderstorm, the tree was hit by lightning and brought down. Funny thing, though, without the tree, my grandparents suddenly had a beautiful view of the entire San Francisco Bay out of their kitchen windows. Within a week, the city taxing authority showed up, snooped around, then sent them a letter which significantly increased their property taxes because now they could see something other than a tree out their back windows.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Wither WH?
if you must troll, troll properly and use his link....
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Public radio
It *is* a public performance... by the radio station, which pays the license fees required by law. A *listener*, which includes the owner of any radio, is not required to pay any such fees. PRS = organized crime.
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I guess it would ok if each person and horse on the premises had a radio in their possession.
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'Orses
Sounds like a lot of horse manure to me. The PRS should hoof off out of it. Neigh to that, lad.
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Bone headed
So, I work from home, and currently have building works going on (builders, tiler, painters, electrician). All like to listen to different stuff on the radio, but most are Radio 4 junkies (like me). The painters are split Radio 1/Radio4. Plus I have someone come in once a week to help out in my home office, and she likes Radio 1 (I don't).
According to PRS, I'm breaking the law if I dont have a public performance licence? Or does that depend on how many rooms/radios are playing Radio 4 as opposed to Radio 1? Should I only be hiring painters and office assistants who are Radio 4 fans? Or - you never know - am I not liable for anything played in the kitchen or bathroom or out in the garden by the painters? Indeed, should they be paying PRS direct for their portable radio choices regardless of private client site.
This is so beyond a joke....
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Proper response. "Get off my property or face bodily harm."
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Royalty Free Music
Hi You could try using royalty free music from www.rfmradio.co.uk cds are available and can include a voiceover
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Royalty Free Music Radio
Well why not use Royalty Free Music Radio at www.rfmradio.co.uk its on 24/7 and changing all the time, cds available where businesses dont have internet access. Customized cds with your adverts featured are also available, advertise on the radio for a small fee
Colin
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DoverWatch has a story about how the PRS tried to extort money from a local business by claiming their radio could be heard on the street below through a closed window. Be sure to read the follow-up as well.
http://doverwatch.blogspot.com/2008/12/if-you-stand-on-table-and-use-these.html
http ://doverwatch.blogspot.com/2008/12/its-just-mobile-phone-officer.html
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Wait until everyone is doing it...
Wait until the cigarette industry starts trying to get non-smokers to pay up for inhaling second-hand smoke.
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Re: Whoaa Nelly
I guess sometimes it needs to be the court to *define* a new law, particularly when the government is a bunch of ignorants without a common sense.
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Re:
RE:
I'm curious too - do they have music on hold on their phone switch? (PRS) if they do - and I call them and put it on speakerphone - aren't they liable as well for a 'public performance'?
That's actually subject to public performance license you need to hold as business to play non-royalty free music.
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Re:
Actually you are charged everyday (if you live in the UK). As every person who owns a TV needs a license. That licence fee is actually Radio and TV license, supporting public broadcaster, the BBC (both radio and TV).
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THE CORRECT THING TO DO IS TO FIGHT THIS TYRRANY
KILL THEM!
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Re: There is something about those Anglo-Saxons
There is something about those Anglo-Saxons
by Tam O'Shanter
Everone knows about those cute Irish cottages, with small windows? Right? Reason they are small windows is because in the "olden days" the Brits would tax the occupants of a cottage based on the amount of light they received from the windows: Thus, small windows. There is something about those Brits.
Somewhat related: In my state, the state claims to own the rain water and has laws against individuals collecting rain for personal storage.
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-------------------
What a load of rubbish. No tax ever existed based on the size of windows. If there's a reason for the windows in Irish cottages being small it'll be down to the sheer expense of the glass required to cover the windows.
We should tax stupid Americans every time they talk nonsense, but then if we did that then America would be bankrupted within a week.
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PRS
a bottom-feeder from the PRS just called me. I told him what I thought of him.
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umm
i dont know if this is true or not, but if it is this this is really stupid. people should have the freedom and liberty to listen to whatever music they prefer at whatever volume they prefer.
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Re: PRS
Americans are amazing. Its the british people who have problems. We make honest claims, and are smarter than you think. And how do you know this article isnt written by a british person?
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PRS
What about from the artist's point of view? PRS are just trying to ensure that artists are getting paid for their creativity, their hard work and their contribution that they are making in this world economy, not to mention to people's well being, afterall isn't that what music is about?
Everyone seems to expect to have music for free these days. Would you want to work for free????? assuming you are not already a multimillionaire or financially independent.
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prs
forget PRS fees just play colins prs free music on wi-fi
at rfmradio.co.uk for some great music 24 hrs a day. also
eds mixed bag.com a florida based podcast with a diferent mix of quallity music shows to download for free.
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wtf
people are griping that the PRS are extorting money. think about it if you play music outside of a domestic setting it is broadcasting... get it..... whether its tyo yourself or a horse or whatever get a grip and stop being so pissed that you got caught .....
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