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stories filed under: "business model patents"
Legal Issues

Legal Issues

by Mike Masnick


Filed Under:
bilski, business model patents, patents, software patents, supreme court



Justices Show Supreme Skepticism About Broad Business Model Patents

from the good-for-them dept

You never know how they'll actually rule, but in hearing the oral arguments in the Bilski case over the patentability of business models (and, most likely, software), one thing became quite clear: nearly every Supreme Court Justice was seriously skeptical of outlandish patent claims. We've noted, of course, that the Supreme Court over the past few years has taken a renewed interest in patent law, pushing back time and time again against the Federal Circuit (CAFC), who in the 80s and 90s seemed to take the position that more patents was always a good thing. Sensing that, with Bilski, CAFC even pushed back on its own earlier rules, and it appears that the Supreme Court at least agrees that the era of crazy business model patents should end now. The full transcript is worth reading, but Justin Levine did a nice job summarizing some of the highlights in the questioning by the Justices:

JUSTICE GINSBURG: But you say you would say tax avoidance methods are covered, just as the process here is covered. So an estate plan, tax avoidance, how to resist a corporate takeover, how to choose a jury, all of those are patentable?

MR. JAKES: They are eligible for patenting as processes, assuming they meet the other statutory requirements.

JUSTICE BREYER: So that would mean that every -- every businessman -- perhaps not every, but every successful businessman typically has something. His firm wouldn't be successful if he didn't have anything that others didn't have. He thinks of a new way to organize. He thinks of a new thing to say on the telephone. He thinks of something. That's how he made his money. And your view would be -- and it's new, too, and it's useful, made him a fortune -- anything that helps any businessman succeed is patentable because we reduce it to a number of steps, explain it in general terms, file our application, granted?

MR. JAKES: It is potentially patentable, yes.




JUSTICE BREYER: You know, I have a great, wonderful, really original method of teaching antitrust law, and it kept 80 percent of the students awake. They learned things.[Audience laughter.] It was fabulous. And I could probably have reduced it to a set of steps and other teachers could have followed it. That you are going to say is patentable, too?

MR. JAKES: Potentially.




JUSTICE SCALIA: You know, you mention that there are all these -- these new areas that didn't exist in the past because of modern business and what-not, but there are also areas that existed in the past that don't exist today. Let's take training horses. Don't you think that -- that some people, horse whisperers or others, had some, you know, some insights into the best way to train horses? And that should have been patentable on your theory.

MR. JAKES: They might have, yes.

JUSTICE SCALIA: Well, why didn't anybody patent those things?

MR. JAKES: I think our economy was based on industrial process.

JUSTICE SCALIA: It was based on horses, for Pete's sake. You -- I would really have thought somebody would have patented that.
Of course, these are the same Justices that have been pushing back on the patent world for quite some time. What about the newer Justices? Turns out they were pretty skeptical as well. There were some questions about new Justice Sotomayor, who had been an IP litigator at one point, but seemed pretty skeptical of these sorts of patents:
JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: So how do we limit it to something that is reasonable? Meaning, if we don't limit it to inventions or to technology, as some amici have, or to some tie or tether, borrowing the Solicitor General's phraseology, to the sciences, to the useful arts, then why not patent the method of speed dating?

MR. JAKES: Well, first of all, I think, looking at what are useful arts, it does exclude some things. It does exclude the fine arts. Speaking, literature, poems, I think we all agree that those are not included, and there are other things as well. For example, a corporation, a human being, these are things that are not covered by the statutory categories.

JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR: So why are human activities covered by useful arts?

MR. JAKES: Human activities are covered.
Chief Justice Roberts dug into the Bilski patent in question, and noted how ridiculously broad the claims were:
CHIEF JUSTICE ROBERTS: What -- I'm looking at your Claim 1, in Joint Appendix page 19 to 20. How is that not an abstract idea? You initiate a series of transactions between commodity providers and commodity consumers. You set a fixed price at the consumer end, you set a fixed price at the other end, and that's it.

I mean, I could patent a process where I do the same thing. I initiate a series of transactions with sellers. I initiate a series of transactions with buyers. I buy low and sell high. That's my patent for maximizing wealth.

I don't see how that's different than your claim number 1.
He went on to point out that some of what the patent seems to cover has been around since the 17th century (history buff, apparently). Anyway, you never know how the Justices will actually rule -- and there are big questions well beyond just "allow/don't allow" that will be the really important thing to watch for in the decision. Will they set up a new "test" for patentability? Will they exclude certain areas (business models? software?) from patent coverage? Will they come out with a very narrow ruling that just focuses on Bilski's patent and leave the bigger questions for another day? That's where things will get interesting. But, at the very least, it seems likely that the worst case scenario of saying a patent like Bilski's is valid is quite unlikely to be the end result.

21 Comments | Leave a Comment..

 
Legal Issues

Legal Issues

by Mike Masnick


Filed Under:
bilski, business method patents, business model patents, patents, software patents, supreme court



Supreme Court To Review Whether Business Models And Software Are Patentable

from the this-should-be-interesting dept

While not a huge surprise, it's worth noting that the Supreme Court has agreed to take the Bilski case, which has received plenty of attention. If you don't recall, last year, the appeals court tried to further define what was patentable when it came to things like business models and software -- which many had considered to be a wide open field for patenting since 1998 and the State Street ruling. Of course, there's been a lot of controversy (and plenty of confusion) over the Bilski ruling, with some insisting that it really wouldn't impact software and business method patents, and others arguing that it will help kill off many such patents. However, pretty much everyone expected that the Supreme Court (with its recent interest in patent law) would weigh in. So, now we get to go through this battle all over again. Expect a lot of different parties to weigh in on how the Supreme Court should rule. Back when all the amici briefs were filed for the Bilski case, I put up a detailed post about the arguments for and against software patents, and I imagine that what we're about to see will be even more heated. Hopefully, the Supreme Court doesn't make things worse.

34 Comments | Leave a Comment..

 
Say That Again

Say That Again

by Mike Masnick


Filed Under:
bilski, business model patents, cafc, plager, software patents, state street



CAFC Judge Regrets Decisions That Resulted In Software Patents

from the so-many-regrets dept

As the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit (CAFC) is considering the Bilski case, where it may finally push back on software and business model patents, it's interesting to hear one of CAFC's judges admit that he was "troubled by the unintended consequences" of the lawsuits (State Street and AT&T) that resulted in software and business model patents being effectively allowed. While it's nice to see Judge Plager worried about this now (just as the CAFC may finally change it), it's a bit of a stretch to claim that the consequences were somehow unintended. There was plenty of discussion around the time of the State Street case concerning what the end result would be if these types of patents were allowed. It's just that too many people seem to think that a change that increases patent coverage couldn't possibly have a negative impact -- despite tons of evidence to the contrary. Hopefully the next time an effort is underway to widen or strengthen patent law, people will look at what a disaster the past four years have been and recognize that expanding patentability is not something that should be done lightly.

45 Comments | Leave a Comment..

 
Legal Issues

Legal Issues

by Mike Masnick


Filed Under:
business model patents, cafc, patents, software patents



Patentability Of Business Model And Software Patents Comes Under Court Scrutiny

from the about-time dept

Nearly ten years ago, the US Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit (CAFC) made its ruling in the State Street Bank case, effectively allowing patents on business models and greatly expanding the scope of software patents in one single move. While there are many problems with the patent system, this one decision made for a lot more bad patents very quickly -- and many of the ridiculous lawsuits you see today wouldn't even exist if this decision had gone the other way. While we've seen the Supreme Court suddenly get religion on fixing the patent system in the past few years, it hasn't really touched on the question of software or business model patents.

On one case that could have addressed the issue, the court dismissed the case on a technicality, rather than digging into the actual issue, though in the dissent, some Justices made it clear they weren't comfortable with the State Street ruling. Last year, some folks tried to sneak the issue of software patents into another Supreme Court patent case, but that seemed like a stretch, since the case really had little to do with software patents directly. The decision in that case did set things up, though, so that the Supreme Court later could reject software patents.

Now we have another important case to watch. As pointed out by the Troll Tracker, CAFC has agreed to a full court hearing to examine the scope of what can be patented. It may sound like a technicality, but it could be a very big deal. Going back on the earlier State Street ruling could effectively knock out many business model patents and software patents, restoring at least some (though, certainly not all) sanity to the patent system, especially in the technology world.

22 Comments | Leave a Comment..

 
News You Could Do Without

News You Could Do Without

by Mike Masnick


Filed Under:
business model patents, call centers, offshoring, outsourcing, patents

Companies:
at&t



AT&T Seeks Patent For Limiting Access To U.S. Workers

from the this-is-patent-worthy? dept

theodp writes "To be fair, IBM isn't the only corporation guilty of demanding U.S. patents for outsourcing methods. For example, AT&T Knowledge Ventures has a patent pending for Managing Incoming Telephone Calls at a Call Center, an invention that calls for transferring callers to offshore call centers unless advance payment is received for the privilege of speaking to someone in the United States. 'Such an option may be beneficial to callers who have difficulties with accents or who have personal or political agendas against outsourcing,' explains Ma Bell 2.0. AT&T's patent claims also cover buying down wait time ('The current wait time is 34 minutes. You may reduce your wait time by a minute for each dollar you are willing to pay. Please enter the number of minutes/dollars you want.')."

Beyond the ridiculousness of the very concept, I've heard such an idea talked about for years. It's a pretty straightforward and obvious idea -- but it's one that few others were interested in implementing (or patenting) as it would likely piss off users. Apparently AT&T doesn't worry about such things. In the meantime, in March of 2004 (about a year and a half before AT&T filed for its patent), I wrote about how the company E-Loan was offering something quite similar. Rather than an upfront payment, E-Loan offered customers a choice of an onshore or offshore call center person, with the knowledge that an offshore support person would help them get a loan faster and an onshore one would take longer. That seems pretty similar to the idea of paying -- it's just that the cost is in time instead of money. Even if this isn't direct prior art, it certainly suggests that these types of ideas have been floating around for quite some time and hardly should be entirely "owned" by one company.

24 Comments | Leave a Comment..

 
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