Sellers Band Together To Create Their Own Naughty Buyer List For eBay
from the well-that's-one-way-to-deal-with-things dept
Back in February, you may recall that eBay announced plans to ban negative feedback from sellers to buyers. The problem was that many sellers were apparently using it as a weapon against buyers who might criticize them. That is, if you had a bad experience as a buyer, rather than fix the problems that resulted in that bad experience, the seller would simply slam you back in the buyer feedback. In other words, it had become something of a nuclear stalemate -- forcing buyers to be too afraid to leave any negative feedback for sellers. Of course, banning negative feedback on buyers seems a bit extreme as the response. And, in the comments to our post, people suggested a variety of alternatives eBay could have tried (including not letting you see the feedback someone left for you until you leave feedback for them). In the meantime, sellers who are upset about this may now have another weapon. One site has set up a system for sellers to share their own buyer "blacklists," effectively creating a large list of problem buyers. What's most interesting to me, is how this shows how the community itself responds to a change in the rules that they feel has too many negative consequences -- rather than just waiting for eBay to fix the problem.
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by Anonymous Coward on May 20th, 2008 @ 11:53am
eBay struggles hard to be the worst major site on the web. Not letting you see your feedback until you've left feedback wouldn't work because many sellers use multiple accounts. It's useful for shilling and to ask questions. When you're interested in something rare (say, BMW Isetta cars), you notice that the dodgy sellers use several accounts.
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work around by claire rand on May 20th, 2008 @ 11:56am
firefox extension? right click on a word, it connects to something, and sees if that word is an ebay username on this sort of site with 'problems' and shos a rating?
how long before the lack of positive feedback on ebay becomes the 'new negative'? anyway?
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What is the Basis For Seller Feedback... by KipEsquire on May 20th, 2008 @ 12:27pm
...other than "paid" or "didn't pay"?
Stated differently, would a "Better Customer Bureau" really be anywhere near as useful as the Better Business Bureau?
eBay's proposal is totally innocuous and probably a good idea.
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Seller Feedback by TheDock22 on May 20th, 2008 @ 12:53pm
I have been slammed by this before. I think the ONLY thing a seller should be able to leave as feedback is paid or unpaid. Instead of banning it though, I think they should require the seller to leave feedback before "unlocking" the ability for buyers to leave feedback. This way sellers have their choice...leave truthful feedback or beware what the buyer may say.
In fact I only shop from sellers now who I know leave feedback right away. So far, I have had no complaints.
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Re: 3. by Nobody on May 20th, 2008 @ 1:02pm
How about the following:
Buyer sent a bad check.
Buyer received item, held onto it for 10 days, then wanted the money back because it "arrived broken".
Buyer bid on an item 25 times, then refused to make payment using methods clearly listed in 3 different locations in the auction.
Buyer left positive comments, but selected negative feedback, and emailed me to laugh about it.
Buyer bought a PC game, held it for a few days, then returned it because it wouldn't install. Returned item installed fine on receipt...
Buyer sent multiple (like 100+) harrassing/threatening email letters after I removed him from an auction due to failure to pay on last item he "won" from my auctions.
And these are just a few of the reasons I stopped selling on ebay after the "no negative" rule went into effect for buyers.
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Where to? by lonelyseller on May 20th, 2008 @ 1:10pm
Anyone seen any 'colonies' from the reported mass exodus? What auction sites are people frequenting instead? There's a lot of stuff I hate about eBay, but the sheer SIZE of it means it's superlative in terms of offering what the buyer and the seller want -- an audience, and a large selection, respectively.
I think once a company becomes the de facto standard in the field, they seem to make unilateral stupid decisions. They can afford to piss off some sellers, because new people are signing up daily -- and oh, the emerging markets! I find so many hong kong located items when searching.
This summer I tried to sell an item 3 times. Each time, the auction ended, and the buyer wrote and said oops sorry! I didn't want to buy that, after all. Ebay stuck me with the huge listing fee (they refunded the final value fee, but so what? If the eBay system worked, I'd have gotten my listing fee's worth -- as it was, I didn't.) After the auction failed for the third time (three buyers, three deadbeats) I sold on Craigslist for the first reasonable offer. The lack of customer response and the whole experience in general left me pretty disgusted. I'd love to find a viable alternative.
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Ebay is going to kill itself by compufxr on May 20th, 2008 @ 1:18pm
By not letting seller leave negative feedback you are essentially killing yourself E-bay. I have been the victim of buyers who fail to read the entire auction before bidding, buyers who are entirely unreasonable as to how to make things better after a sale and my feedback has suffered because of that. Why should the seller be vicitimized for doing nothing wrong? How can you have a "one-sided" feedback system? Who has the power now? Whichever side you disallow from leaving negative feedback you are just making the other side "all powerful". We all know that there is always one rotten apple in the bunch and unfortunately they ruin it for everyone. But you can't blame everyone for a few people's actions. Personally, I just think E-bay got tired of settling claims by both buyers and sellers that negative feedback should be removed. This way they dont have to deal with all of their users arguing every time someone leaves a negative feedback. Sorry E-bay I think you definitely dropped the ball on this one.
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Ebay Feedback by Bobbi Miller on May 20th, 2008 @ 1:23pm
I have been a registered eBay user - buyer & seller for 10+ years.
The new feedback change is horrific, and has been destructive to
sellers already. Personally, it has had little impact but that does not
make it correct. There has always been an option on both sides to leave
appropriate feedback: Positve +1, Neutral 0, or Negative -1. Now
neutrals are also -1. The eBay sellers (who are also buyers) including
myself have been on all boards throughout the eBay since the change
went active yesterday.
Years ago when Pierre made his original gaff of “only a $1″ I was
very vocal on the boards to the point that eBay was threatening me.
Those clips are still around. eBay modified the edict and all settled
down but it was many years until I regularly bought & sold again. Some
changes have been beneficial, some not. But I was always proud of my
feedback-my cyberspace footprint-but no more. Now they have managed to
destroy many cyberspace footprints in one fell swoop. When a business
has been based and branded with a superior ingredient that is modified
the result can be detrimental. New Coke springs to mind.
After thoughtful consideration, I am letting my last auctions wind
down and my last bids on purchases finalize. By next week I will be
posting on other sites. I wanted to let you know the result of the
newest action for one member. There is a firestorm brewing and I am
moving out of the line of fire.
I am leaving this everywhere I do business and for the News Media. Power Sellers have started closing their stores. Sellers have been suspended. Ebay had it’s own commodity or product, the sellers. It damaged its product.
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Re: Re: 3. by sonofdot on May 20th, 2008 @ 1:23pm
I've seen similar things happen in my 9+ years on eBay. Negative feedback from deadbeat bidders; negative feedback for an item that the buyer claimed was damaged (they over-wound a music box that was working perfectly prior to shipping). Now someone can place hundreds of winning bids, not pay for anything, and the worst they can get is a "neutral."
Ebay has failed to see who their customer really is -- the seller. They keep thinking that the buyers are their customers. Wrong! The buyers are the sellers' customers; sellers are eBay's customers.
I hope eBay dies a slow, agonizing death, and to the MBAs who came on board and ruined a wonderful site -- may all of you greedy pricks burn in hell.
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All positive feedback... by SailorAlphaCentauri on May 20th, 2008 @ 1:26pm
I was surprised when I went to leave feedback for a purchase last night to see that I can no longer get negative feedback from sellers...except I had never gotten negative feedback in seven years of being on the site, so I was a little confused. (I hadn't read this site's article about that proposal ahead of time). I've not had problems with sellers, and I usually check to see if the negative feedback left on a seller's page is due to the seller being bad (I saw one blatant case where the seller screwed off for the last two months before abandoning selling altogether) or the buyer being a problem shopper. How does this protect the seller from crappy buyers? Especially with the proposal of the seller leaving feedback first, it leaves the seller vulnerable to negative attacks and impacts their rating without affecting the buyer (who sometimes does deserve a negative). I always leave feedback after I've received my purchase and I would contact the seller if I had a problem before even thinking about leaving negative feedback, so I'm not 100% sure why eBay had to do this.
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by ken on May 20th, 2008 @ 1:28pm
What rights to sellers have in terms of refusing a bid from a specific buyer? If johndoe is on one of these blacklists and is the winning bidder on an item, can the seller refuse to give it to him and instead offer it to the number 2 bidder? Or refuse to honor the auction at all?
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Re: Re: 3. by TheDock22 on May 20th, 2008 @ 1:50pm
Buyer sent a bad check.
So don't leave feedback until the check clears...mark as a 'Not Paid'
Buyer received item, held onto it for 10 days, then wanted the money back because it "arrived broken".
Get the item back and verify it was broken. Maybe it really was broken on arrival, you don't know for sure. Mark as 'Paid'
Buyer bid on an item 25 times, then refused to make payment using methods clearly listed in 3 different locations in the auction.
Mark this as 'Not Paid'
Buyer left positive comments, but selected negative feedback, and emailed me to laugh about it.
So you turn around and ding them with a negative feedback? That sounds childish.
Buyer bought a PC game, held it for a few days, then returned it because it wouldn't install. Returned item installed fine on receipt...
So sell it again and mark as 'Paid' on the original buyer. Sometimes people are just dumb, doesn't mean anything deceptive went on.
Buyer sent multiple (like 100+) harrassing/threatening email letters after I removed him from an auction due to failure to pay on last item he "won" from my auctions.
Well since they didn't win the 2nd bid you wouldn't be able to leave feedback anyway. One the first bid mark as 'Not Paid'.
I still am not seeing how the seller having only these two options is a bad thing.
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Re: by sonofdot on May 20th, 2008 @ 2:06pm
Sellers can create a list of blocked bidders, but that's closing the barn door after the cows have gotten out. Without seller feedback, you don't know if a bidder is a charm to deal with or just a deadbeat jerk until the auction is over. With negative feedback from sellers, I can see if the person bidding on my auction has deserved negative feedback (not all negative feedback is deserved), and determine for myself if I'm willing to deal with them.
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Re: Re: Re: 3. by sonofdot on May 20th, 2008 @ 2:19pm
Obviously, you don't sell on eBay, or don't sell regularly, or you wouldn't be so simple-minded. (The only other option is that you're one of the deadbeat bidders.) There's a lot of time, effort and expense involved in creating a listing, preparing photos, packing and shipping. For bad checks, not only do I not get my money, but I get dinged by my bank for $25 for depositing that bad check. And yet you think I should have no recourse? Sorry, but if you take off the rose-colored glasses for a moment, you'll see that it's not quite that simple.
In the past, I've had buyers leave negative feedback because I don't take personal checks (clearly stated in the auction listing), yet they bid on my auction anyway. And I should just sit back and take that? My reputation should be damaged because some jerk can't be bothered to read or follow the plainly stated terms? Or according to you, I should just mark it as "paid" and leave it at that? If that wasn't so incredibly stupid, it would be funny.
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Re: 13 sonofdot by silentsteel on May 20th, 2008 @ 2:29pm
This is not really a good comparison because the sellers on Ebay were not the ones that left the barn door open to begin with. The sellers can only do what they have available at this point to let one another know if a buyer has not acted in good faith for one reason or another. At this point sellers have two options I can see: Create this list or sell on a different site. I, for one, would sell on a different site.
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by Anonymous Coward on May 20th, 2008 @ 3:05pm
My own personal issue was I sold a Shuttle bare bones small form factor system. I put in large fonts the exact specs of the system and specifically mentioned that it was an AGP slot. The person then emailed me claiming it was "broken". Long story short, he didn't know the difference between an AGP and PCi Express (I'm assuming he was a kid because the way he talked, he didn't even know what an AGP form factor was). Out of 45 transactions since 1999 I had a perfect record and this little bastard ruined it.
Personally i think eBay has simply gotten too big for its own good. they can't possibly police over 5 million transactions per day so their method of solving problems like this end up not making anyone happy.
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I have a site for you... by Scott on May 20th, 2008 @ 3:05pm
Funny how one sided this is...I registered thisebaysellersucks.com because I was repeatedly ripped off by sellers, or because a seller left negative feedback when I honestly left either negative or neutral. It is not one sided, it is bilaterally a shit hole now a days.
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Ebay Feedback Changes by Honest Sellers Are Now Screwed on May 20th, 2008 @ 3:10pm
I have been selling and buying on ebay for quite some time and I've had problems from both sides.
I have had sellers leave negative feedback just in retaliation for leaving neg. and even worse, I've also had them leave neg just because I left a neutral - even when they deserved a neg! 1 time, I actually had a seller leave a negative because I was honest but still left positive!
I've also had buyers leave negative feedback just because they are as*holes and wait till i've left feedback first.
I've had buyers threaten to leave neg if I didn't refund half their money, because they didn't fully read the details and bid with out even knowing what they were bidding on then decide they "just don't want it".. or worse, they bid on clothes and don't check the measurement get it and obviously doesn't fit or they damage the item and file a complaint that it wasn't as described.. the list goes on and on! This is why many sellers would wait for the buyer before leaving feedback before these changes went through. You get burned too many times and you become suspicious of everyone from both sides of the spectrum. The feedback system was flawed to begin with! Their first mistake was making neutrals a negative aspect.
Any time I've bought and there has been a problem with the item I have always contacted the seller first to give them the chance to make it right. Where as as a seller I have stated this very same thing in my auctions to give me the opportunity to fix the problem before leaving a neg. Several times I have been stuck with buyers who just wanted to get something for nothing or were pissy because they SIMPLY didn't read all of the info stated in the auction, then passed the buck onto me because they JUST can't admit they are wrong!
At least before as a seller you had some sort of say in the argument. Now we cant have any say for fear that you say one thing that MIGHT be negative towards them, you get a ding to your feedback score even if it is a positive rating you left them! This is not going to help in any way it is just going to make sellers more paranoid and mistrusting and in turn we'll all drop off because ebay CONTINUES to alienate us!
As to the people who say "well all that counts is if you were paid, I paid so you should leave me positive for paying" - but the reality is that as a seller you aren't just leaving feedback for getting paid you are letting other sellers know if that buyer is problematic or difficult to deal with, and giving them a fair warning if they see they are a problematic buyer. It is giving feedback on the ENTIRE transaction and the experience.
For instance, it isn't fair if you as a seller have to wait 3-4 weeks to receive payment. You then have to go through all the trouble of filing the disputes and waiting on ebay to respond, only to be paid the day before settling!? So you are just supposed to be happy you got payment at all? Some buyers DESERVE to have a neg left for them! Especially when they waste your time like that!
Now it is completely one sided and unfair. I will be taking my business elsewhere until they change their feedback policies!
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Easy Fix by GHynson on May 20th, 2008 @ 3:11pm
QUIT USING eBAY!!!!
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Re: Re: 13 sonofdot by sonofdot on May 20th, 2008 @ 3:11pm
It's not a comparison, it's an analogy.
Sellers didn't leave the barn door open, but this new policy does. Without the benefit of (deserved) negative feedback for buyers, sellers can't tell if they should block a bidder until the bidder has potentially already won an auction, when it's too late (hence the barn door analogy).
You're right that sellers now have two options, and most (that we know, anyway) seem to be taking the option to sell on a different site. eBay won't begin to see the fallout of this boneheaded decision for another few weeks, when it will be far too late to bring the sellers back into the fold (many were waiting until today to jump ship, if they didn't already jump due to the fee increases). And the MBAs can pat themselves on the back for lining their pockets with money, while destroying what was once a good community.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: 3. by TheDock22 on May 20th, 2008 @ 3:15pm
How fair is it that sellers can be weeks late shipping out an item after countless emails and if I leave them a neutral or negative remark they turn around and leave me some negative remark such as "bad communication"? This has happened to me 4 times. I've bought an item, paid for it within an hour, and then wait weeks upon weeks for an item I paid express shipping for?
The majority of sellers will wait until you post feedback before THEY post feedback. If I pay on time and the seller sucks and ships out my item two weeks late, is it fair for them to leave me a negative feedback because I leave them one? No! Sellers are just as much to blame as buyers.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 3. by idiotsRYou on May 20th, 2008 @ 3:31pm
um don't be an idiot and buy from that seller in the first place for charging excess shipping? I have no sympathy for you! You know the price of shipping BEFORE YOU BID! If you don't want to pay that shipping DON'T BID IT IS AS SIMPLE AS THAT! It is idiot buyers like you that perpetuate those types of sellers and you only have yourself to blame!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 3. by sonofdot on May 20th, 2008 @ 3:47pm
Retaliatory feedback is one of the few things you can get eBay to reverse, but it takes a lifetime and about a brazilian emails.
I agree, both sellers and buyers are to blame, but why are buyers now the only ones who can leave negative feedback? There are just as many problem buyers as there are problem sellers, but eBay only wants the problem sellers identified, not the problem buyers. That just opens the whole thing up to more scam artists, because sellers can no longer identify the problems.
In your four cases, it sounds like you paid via Paypal, through which you did have recourse. Now, the new policy is that sellers don't get paid for 21 days, which will also drive sellers away from Paypal. I'm not going to sell you something, ship it to you, and then wait 21 days for my payment. Simple fact is, no payment, no shipment. Period. If I have to wait 21 days for Paypal to release my money, then you'll have to wait 21 days for me to release your shipment. But Paypal thinks I should ship the item, and wait patiently for my money. Um, sure. What I'll do, for the very few remaining items I plan to sell on eBay, is simply no longer accept Paypal. Money orders only. And on our website, we'll gladly accept Google checkout, but no longer will we use Paypal.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 3. by Celes on May 20th, 2008 @ 4:46pm
The point was not about the shipping charges - it was about paying more for faster shipping, then ending up waiting 2-3 weeks for the seller to send the item. I've had that happen once or twice. If you've paid for overnight shipping don't you expect the item to arrive in one or maybe a couple of business days? Not weeks?
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by Rekrul on May 20th, 2008 @ 5:55pm
I've bought several things on eBay, but have never sold anything. I have a 100% positive feedback record, all entered before this change took effect. I'm against this change. In the past, a good feedback rating showed that I was a good buyer. Now, it's basically useless since I could have had a dozen bad deals and they wouldn't be reflected in the feedback. How is that better for me?
I sent eBay an email protesting the change just now. Let's see how long it takes before one of the trained monkeys there sends me a reply that includes the help page explaining the feedback changes, rather than actually writing a response to what I wrote.
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eBay is broke. by DJ Lo on May 21st, 2008 @ 6:28pm
eBay lowered their listing fees, but JACKED-UP the closing percentages to 8.0% ---- Fine, jack-up the fees and squeeze all the profit margins of the sellers. But now you can't leave feedback?? As a long time seller, I agree the sellers are getting screwed by the new feedback rules.
I suggest that NO SELLERS LEAVE POSITIVE FEEDBACK ANYMORE. That is what I have chosen to do. As far as negative feedback received--- I dropped positive feedback and said "The Buyer Likes it in the Anal!" Then I refunded him the PayPal Payment and did a non-paying bidder dispute.
New buyers are quick to leave negative feedback --- and the sellers can't do anything. Basically, the eBay feedback system doesn't matter now. The eBay Buyer is always right, even though they are dumb-asses with (0) feedback.
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Nonsense by Deco Bogo on Jun 2nd, 2008 @ 2:20pm
I have never really had many issues with buyers as I seel items of not a very high value and that wouldn't really attract idiots. I also tend to use BuyItNow only listings with immediate payment only and so you can only Buy if you can pay straight away. However, this week was the first week that I noticed how buyers just seem to have changed totally. They don't respond to emails, haven't been paid for seven items and get the feeling they are still thinking about if they want the items even though the bought them last week! There was always a little fear of neg feedback that made someone pay on time and also people paid early so they would get positive feedback and then maybe sell someday with 200 plus postives from buying. Now that's dead. How hard is it to start an Ebay site - could someone not do it really easy? I hope someone comes along and wipes them like Google did Yahoo.
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by DiamondTemplar on Jun 17th, 2008 @ 10:23am
I have just read through all of the comments above & as a seller I have seen such a change since the new feedback went through.
Surprize surprize! I had a 100% feedback & the very next day the feedback rule changed I got my first negative.
Buyers now are so quick to leave negative feedback. They do nothing to resolve an issue first. They leave negative feedback & then ask for you to sort a situation out rather than the other way round.
Now also since neutrals count as negatives for sellers.What on earth is the point of calling it a neutral. It's pointless.
Feedback is inherently always more important to a seller, since our livelihoods depend on it. For a buyer whats the worst that can happen? They can't buy off ebay any more on that account. So what! They can just open a new account. A seller can't easily do this because they use the feedback as a way to build up a good reputation so that people will buy from them. This take a long time. A buyer does not need to build the same reputation.
Now a sellers reputation has been left at the mercy of unscrupulous buyers. Absolutely anyone now has the ability to destroy a sellers feedback without an recourse.
Here are just a few examples in which this might happen.
1 - a bad buyer - for whatever reason & there are many.
2 - a friend you fallout with down the pud, goes on ebay. Buys off you & slates you.
3 - Other sellers who are your competition. Buy from you & leave you a negative.
The list goes on...
The point is this situation is so inherently unfair.
As someone pointed out above. Scam Artists have made good genuine sellers look bad. They don't care because they do their scam & then they are gone. Genuine sellers are the ones self to get punished.
We get punished by ebay. As mentioned above also, we are ebays customers. The buyers are our customers. If ebay keep alienating more & more genuine sellers then who will the buyers buy from when they come to ebay. Certainly not from ebay. They don't actually sell anything. Yet they are so buyer orientated.
One final note of agreement with yet another comment above. I've recently started putting more items on auction rather than buy now & I'm having the same problem as describe above. Tons of bidders who are taking ages to pay. Not following through on transactions & not responding to any emails that I have sent. After 8 emails you would expect at least some reply. & this is not just happening with one or two people. Buyers now know they have all the power & are becoming aloof.
Ebay must balance this situation out or all will fall apart.
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