The biggest problem with making health care into an industry, (as the US has, and in so doing, has affected every other country), is that the best healthcare system is one that's NEVER USED.
In other words - having the best health care, and making a profit, are actually ideally incompatible.
With that in mind, along with the fact that health care HAS to treat everyone for lots of things equally - (since the minority can and WILL cause problems for the majority) - healthcare is actually one of the best systems designed for a socialist program - but only if it's done properly, and preferably from the ground up, without any interference - unfortunately, of course, such a scenario doesn't, and will probably never, exist.
"
1. Recorded music is free because I want it to be and so fuck the RIAA.
2. Recorded music is free due to vast technological forces beyond anyone's control, so people who make it had better figure out how to adapt.
"
But even this doesn't get the proper reason for what is going on:
Distribution of information, (as well as its storage), at this moment in time, is almost free, (and getting cheaper).
The reason why there's a problem, is because large parts of the music industry have been built on the premise that distribution is a) expensive, and b) under their control.
Now those two are no longer true, they're having problems...
Please, can people STOP trying to find analogies for the music industry by trying to use physical property and objects in place of INFORMATION. It CANNOT, WILL NOT, and will NEVER work...
Information is NOT property, and one of the reason why everything is so screwed up these days is because people keep on trying to treat it as that, and failing dismally, but dragging everyone one else along with them.
But the information itself ISN'T the problem here!
The problem is that some of the industry got itself so set in it's ways about DISTRIBUTING the information, (i.e. the carrier pigeon vs telegraph analogy I give above), that they're having trouble adapting to a newer, more efficient method of distribution, (and copying).
If the industry had charged for the creation of the information to begin with, rather than it's distribution, it wouldn't be in this situation right now.
And THAT is why it's ENTIRELY a business model problem, and NOTHING ELSE. And it's no-one else's problem, but theirs - if they can't adapt, then tough cookies.
"The implication is, of course, that the post-copyright world will not be substantially less shitty for artists than the current one. It may be worse, since it reduces the value of their creation further."
It depends on what they have to sell... If they have something to sell that people want to buy, then they'll succeed - if they don't, they won't - it really is that simple. If you can't make a product people want to buy, you do not 'deserve' to be in business...
My analogy:
The problem, is that companies have now found themselves built up to sell the wrong thing. It's like the carrier pigeon companies complaining that the telegraph has made their business obsolete - they'd built their companies up by distributing unique messages, but the only thing that made them so valuable, was that the carrier pigeons took so long to do anything and send them anywhere, so each individual message sent was valuable. In fact they were so valuable, that there was a law passed preventing the copying of messages without explicit permission.
Now the telegraph comes around, and all of a sudden, even though the messages they are distributing are still owned by the carrier pigeon industry, and them alone, people are now copying them and sending them by telegraph instead - because it's better. Not only is it better because it's fast and reliable - but it's ALSO a LOT cheaper - in fact, it's SO much cheaper to send by telegraph, that the carrier pigeon business is doing everything it can to try and stop the telegraph from working properly.
The problem for the carrier pigeon industry, is that one pigeon can only carry one message to one location at a time, whereas the telegraph can send the same message to many different locations at once, and it's so much cheaper to send a message, it's almost FREE.
However, they found someone sending a couple of their messages by telegraph, (obviously copied from at least two of their pigeons), and so they sued him/her. And got awarded millions of dollars. All for a couple of messages that cost pennies to transmit by telegraph, but $/£'s by carrier pigeon.
Of course, the carrier pigeon industry's excuse, is that their messages cost a lot more to make than those sent by telegraph. But they're wrong. This isn't he problem.
In fact, the messages sent by telegraph cost the same amount to make as those sent by carrier pigeon. The problem is that the telegraph industry is already thriving by itself, and sending more than just the messages similar to those sent by carrier pigeon. In fact there's so much information being sent, that to try and dictate by information type simply wouldn't work - (too much overhead) - so they charge a flat fee for TIME used, (in which to send any messages and information you people want, to as many people as they like), and this manages to cover the cost of all the information sent and received.
Indeed, because so much MORE information can now be sent, (as opposed to the short messages which carrier pigeons were limited to), many industries have evolved to take advantage of this fact.
All except the carrier pigeon industry, which is still sitting on top of their pile of their own created messages, and suing anyone they can find who sends them by telegraph.
And they refuse to accept that the messages they have are now only worth pennies since that's all they cost to be sent (by telegraph). In fact, some of their members have tried to send their messages over telegraph for the same price as by carrier pigeon, and are wondering why no-one is buying...
And so they complain to the government, saying that everyone is illegally copying and sending their messages by telegraph instead of using them and their pigeons instead.
And then, unfortunately, they do 'everything' they can to make sure that the government listens to them, and enacts laws in their favour, that make it illegal to read and copy a message from a carrier pigeon if you haven't paid for it.
But because everyone is now using the telegraph, they don't care, and just ignore them, even if they do like the messages copied from the pigeons. In fact, some people still buy the messages from the pigeons they like so much, but, of course, the numbers doing so are declining.
And then another company comes along, which has more to do with making telegraphs than breeding carrier pigeons, and they come up with a easy way to buy, send and receive messages online for a slightly increased cost. They then do a deal with the carrier pigeon industry for some of their messages too. This is a great success in the world of the telegraph, and for the company involved. In fact, it's so successful that other companies start doing the same.
But the carrier pigeon industry STILL isn't happy. They're no longer making the sort of money they used to make when a carrier pigeon was the only way to send messages, and so they try to increase the amount their messages sell for and try to limit the supply so that they'll be more valuable.
In fact, they've never once had all of their messages available for sale, simply because they're afraid they'll lose all of the value they have,and so they keep a lot of them still locked away some where where no one can read or copy them.
But people want to send all of the messages, and they want to do it for the prices they're used to using the telegraph - they're not interested in carrier pigeons anymore...?
But the carrier pigeon industry is still holding out and complaining - in fact, they're even making the pigeons MORE expensive to send.
And so the people have had enough, and copy and send any of the carrier pigeons messages they like, regardless - if they don't want to sell them to them at a price they want, then why should they get their business and money.
And, of course, the carrier pigeon industry isn't the only message making company. Although making messages to send via telegraph isn't really worth very much, in fact, it's probably hard to make living out of, people have found other ways of using the messages themselves in order to make the money elsewhere.
Does the carrier pigeon industry deserve to exist? Does it deserve to make money? Does it deserve all the judgements and fate of every individual who sends and copies their messages over the telegraph? Or should they change their business model so that they now sell a product that people want to buy at a price they want to spend? If the messages are almost worthless once created, since they can be copied and sent anywhere people choose for very little money, then why can't they find something else to sell? Lots of other people have, so why can't they?
And since messages are now worth very little, and can be copied and distributed so easily and cheaply, what does that mean for the law that prevents such things without permission?
Actually - the real problem, (and I've talked about this before) - is that they want BOTH!
They want to both SELL you a product, (that just happens to have some particular data/information/music/film etc. on it), and therefore be able to stop you from making unauthorised copies of it, while at the SAME TIME, licensing the particular information on the disk, in order to control how you use it.
Unfortunately, the law doesn't seem to see that the two are NOT THE SAME THING, and are, in fact, conflicting with each other - (which the DCMA in the US reinforces).
The problem, is that they should not be allowed to DO both - they should just pick one, license or sell, and stick with it. The reason for this, is that they are both covered by different laws and regulations, which, as I said, conflict - (at least here in the UK).
But since they have the politicians in their back pocket atm, they're being allowed to get away with it. (While most people just work round it completely).
INFORMATION, (in itself), IS NOT, NOR SHOULD EVER BE CONSIDERED, PROPERTY.
A lot of our problems arrive because people refuse to accept this statement - all because some companies have corrupted their original purpose, (distributing property that contained information), in trying to control the information itself.
But since the invention of the internet - the worlds greatest ever PURE information COPYING AND DISTRIBUTION system - (i.e. it doesn't require the transfer of scarce physical goods to operate, unlike paper & ink etc.) - their original reason for existing has changed, or is at least changing. Unfortunately they refuse to accept this, and are now trying to control the distribution and use of the information itself, regardless of any actual property it no longer needs, in a manner inconsistent with the way the internet works, and the way humanity wants and/or needs it to work.
Humanity has always thrived on the free exchange of information, and to try and force it to do anything otherwise is, well, not a good idea - it generally leads to such things as censorship and propaganda etc. - things which have always been tried, but always eventually failed, as humanity usually finds a way round it, or fights against it. (Yes, I know about China, but I don't see them staying that way indefinitely - humanity will/should always outlast any tyranny).
This isn't to say that information isn't valuable - it's just that, because of the internet, the information, in itself, isn't valuable ENOUGH to make people pay the amount of money a lot of companies think it's worth.
However, it's possible to add things to the information in order to increase it's value - even such basic things as presentation and organisation, in order to improve access etc. can increase its value to the point that some people think it's worth paying for. And this is without actually linking it with any actual 'property' which, by it's very nature, will be a scarce good that is more valuable...
But few companies seem to full understand this: because they were so used to dealing with limited, scarce physical property - (from paper and ink to plastic discs) - they're having trouble understanding what it is they're trying to sell now, and how to actually go about doing it.
And they've made a big mistake - they've done everything they can to try and make the INFORMATION itself, into a scarce good...
But information isn't, and will never be scarce, certainly now, as long as the internet exists. And so they're trying to do everything they can, from getting laws enacted, to artificially limiting access, to try and force their information into being a scarce good, just like they think it used to be.
But it never was, and still isn't. Information has never been a scarce good - it's only ever been the format that information took that was scarce - but that's changed, and a lot of companies have yet to understand that.
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Healthcare... (as KeillRandor)
The biggest problem with making health care into an industry, (as the US has, and in so doing, has affected every other country), is that the best healthcare system is one that's NEVER USED.
In other words - having the best health care, and making a profit, are actually ideally incompatible.
With that in mind, along with the fact that health care HAS to treat everyone for lots of things equally - (since the minority can and WILL cause problems for the majority) - healthcare is actually one of the best systems designed for a socialist program - but only if it's done properly, and preferably from the ground up, without any interference - unfortunately, of course, such a scenario doesn't, and will probably never, exist.
Re: gonna go ahead and say (as KeillRandor)
"people doing massive amounts of drugs in the middle of the dessert"
Cannabis flavoured ice-cream?
Re: (herodotus) (as KeillRandor)
"
1. Recorded music is free because I want it to be and so fuck the RIAA.
2. Recorded music is free due to vast technological forces beyond anyone's control, so people who make it had better figure out how to adapt.
"
But even this doesn't get the proper reason for what is going on:
Distribution of information, (as well as its storage), at this moment in time, is almost free, (and getting cheaper).
The reason why there's a problem, is because large parts of the music industry have been built on the premise that distribution is a) expensive, and b) under their control.
Now those two are no longer true, they're having problems...
Re: all those (damn) pizza analogies.... (as KeillRandor)
Please, can people STOP trying to find analogies for the music industry by trying to use physical property and objects in place of INFORMATION. It CANNOT, WILL NOT, and will NEVER work...
Information is NOT property, and one of the reason why everything is so screwed up these days is because people keep on trying to treat it as that, and failing dismally, but dragging everyone one else along with them.
But the information itself ISN'T the problem here!
The problem is that some of the industry got itself so set in it's ways about DISTRIBUTING the information, (i.e. the carrier pigeon vs telegraph analogy I give above), that they're having trouble adapting to a newer, more efficient method of distribution, (and copying).
If the industry had charged for the creation of the information to begin with, rather than it's distribution, it wouldn't be in this situation right now.
And THAT is why it's ENTIRELY a business model problem, and NOTHING ELSE. And it's no-one else's problem, but theirs - if they can't adapt, then tough cookies.
Re: Re: (as KeillRandor)
"The implication is, of course, that the post-copyright world will not be substantially less shitty for artists than the current one. It may be worse, since it reduces the value of their creation further."
It depends on what they have to sell... If they have something to sell that people want to buy, then they'll succeed - if they don't, they won't - it really is that simple. If you can't make a product people want to buy, you do not 'deserve' to be in business...
My analogy:
The problem, is that companies have now found themselves built up to sell the wrong thing. It's like the carrier pigeon companies complaining that the telegraph has made their business obsolete - they'd built their companies up by distributing unique messages, but the only thing that made them so valuable, was that the carrier pigeons took so long to do anything and send them anywhere, so each individual message sent was valuable. In fact they were so valuable, that there was a law passed preventing the copying of messages without explicit permission.
Now the telegraph comes around, and all of a sudden, even though the messages they are distributing are still owned by the carrier pigeon industry, and them alone, people are now copying them and sending them by telegraph instead - because it's better. Not only is it better because it's fast and reliable - but it's ALSO a LOT cheaper - in fact, it's SO much cheaper to send by telegraph, that the carrier pigeon business is doing everything it can to try and stop the telegraph from working properly.
The problem for the carrier pigeon industry, is that one pigeon can only carry one message to one location at a time, whereas the telegraph can send the same message to many different locations at once, and it's so much cheaper to send a message, it's almost FREE.
However, they found someone sending a couple of their messages by telegraph, (obviously copied from at least two of their pigeons), and so they sued him/her. And got awarded millions of dollars. All for a couple of messages that cost pennies to transmit by telegraph, but $/£'s by carrier pigeon.
Of course, the carrier pigeon industry's excuse, is that their messages cost a lot more to make than those sent by telegraph. But they're wrong. This isn't he problem.
In fact, the messages sent by telegraph cost the same amount to make as those sent by carrier pigeon. The problem is that the telegraph industry is already thriving by itself, and sending more than just the messages similar to those sent by carrier pigeon. In fact there's so much information being sent, that to try and dictate by information type simply wouldn't work - (too much overhead) - so they charge a flat fee for TIME used, (in which to send any messages and information you people want, to as many people as they like), and this manages to cover the cost of all the information sent and received.
Indeed, because so much MORE information can now be sent, (as opposed to the short messages which carrier pigeons were limited to), many industries have evolved to take advantage of this fact.
All except the carrier pigeon industry, which is still sitting on top of their pile of their own created messages, and suing anyone they can find who sends them by telegraph.
And they refuse to accept that the messages they have are now only worth pennies since that's all they cost to be sent (by telegraph). In fact, some of their members have tried to send their messages over telegraph for the same price as by carrier pigeon, and are wondering why no-one is buying...
And so they complain to the government, saying that everyone is illegally copying and sending their messages by telegraph instead of using them and their pigeons instead.
And then, unfortunately, they do 'everything' they can to make sure that the government listens to them, and enacts laws in their favour, that make it illegal to read and copy a message from a carrier pigeon if you haven't paid for it.
But because everyone is now using the telegraph, they don't care, and just ignore them, even if they do like the messages copied from the pigeons. In fact, some people still buy the messages from the pigeons they like so much, but, of course, the numbers doing so are declining.
And then another company comes along, which has more to do with making telegraphs than breeding carrier pigeons, and they come up with a easy way to buy, send and receive messages online for a slightly increased cost. They then do a deal with the carrier pigeon industry for some of their messages too. This is a great success in the world of the telegraph, and for the company involved. In fact, it's so successful that other companies start doing the same.
But the carrier pigeon industry STILL isn't happy. They're no longer making the sort of money they used to make when a carrier pigeon was the only way to send messages, and so they try to increase the amount their messages sell for and try to limit the supply so that they'll be more valuable.
In fact, they've never once had all of their messages available for sale, simply because they're afraid they'll lose all of the value they have,and so they keep a lot of them still locked away some where where no one can read or copy them.
But people want to send all of the messages, and they want to do it for the prices they're used to using the telegraph - they're not interested in carrier pigeons anymore...?
But the carrier pigeon industry is still holding out and complaining - in fact, they're even making the pigeons MORE expensive to send.
And so the people have had enough, and copy and send any of the carrier pigeons messages they like, regardless - if they don't want to sell them to them at a price they want, then why should they get their business and money.
And, of course, the carrier pigeon industry isn't the only message making company. Although making messages to send via telegraph isn't really worth very much, in fact, it's probably hard to make living out of, people have found other ways of using the messages themselves in order to make the money elsewhere.
Does the carrier pigeon industry deserve to exist? Does it deserve to make money? Does it deserve all the judgements and fate of every individual who sends and copies their messages over the telegraph? Or should they change their business model so that they now sell a product that people want to buy at a price they want to spend? If the messages are almost worthless once created, since they can be copied and sent anywhere people choose for very little money, then why can't they find something else to sell? Lots of other people have, so why can't they?
And since messages are now worth very little, and can be copied and distributed so easily and cheaply, what does that mean for the law that prevents such things without permission?
Re: Re: Re: Sigh (as KeillRandor)
But the NSA don't need to use Echelon domestically - they ask GCHQ in the UK to do it for them - (and vice versa...).
Re: Licensing media or content? (as KeillRandor)
Actually - the real problem, (and I've talked about this before) - is that they want BOTH!
They want to both SELL you a product, (that just happens to have some particular data/information/music/film etc. on it), and therefore be able to stop you from making unauthorised copies of it, while at the SAME TIME, licensing the particular information on the disk, in order to control how you use it.
Unfortunately, the law doesn't seem to see that the two are NOT THE SAME THING, and are, in fact, conflicting with each other - (which the DCMA in the US reinforces).
The problem, is that they should not be allowed to DO both - they should just pick one, license or sell, and stick with it. The reason for this, is that they are both covered by different laws and regulations, which, as I said, conflict - (at least here in the UK).
But since they have the politicians in their back pocket atm, they're being allowed to get away with it. (While most people just work round it completely).
Hmm (as KeillRandor)
INFORMATION, (in itself), IS NOT, NOR SHOULD EVER BE CONSIDERED, PROPERTY.
A lot of our problems arrive because people refuse to accept this statement - all because some companies have corrupted their original purpose, (distributing property that contained information), in trying to control the information itself.
But since the invention of the internet - the worlds greatest ever PURE information COPYING AND DISTRIBUTION system - (i.e. it doesn't require the transfer of scarce physical goods to operate, unlike paper & ink etc.) - their original reason for existing has changed, or is at least changing. Unfortunately they refuse to accept this, and are now trying to control the distribution and use of the information itself, regardless of any actual property it no longer needs, in a manner inconsistent with the way the internet works, and the way humanity wants and/or needs it to work.
Humanity has always thrived on the free exchange of information, and to try and force it to do anything otherwise is, well, not a good idea - it generally leads to such things as censorship and propaganda etc. - things which have always been tried, but always eventually failed, as humanity usually finds a way round it, or fights against it. (Yes, I know about China, but I don't see them staying that way indefinitely - humanity will/should always outlast any tyranny).
This isn't to say that information isn't valuable - it's just that, because of the internet, the information, in itself, isn't valuable ENOUGH to make people pay the amount of money a lot of companies think it's worth.
However, it's possible to add things to the information in order to increase it's value - even such basic things as presentation and organisation, in order to improve access etc. can increase its value to the point that some people think it's worth paying for. And this is without actually linking it with any actual 'property' which, by it's very nature, will be a scarce good that is more valuable...
But few companies seem to full understand this: because they were so used to dealing with limited, scarce physical property - (from paper and ink to plastic discs) - they're having trouble understanding what it is they're trying to sell now, and how to actually go about doing it.
And they've made a big mistake - they've done everything they can to try and make the INFORMATION itself, into a scarce good...
But information isn't, and will never be scarce, certainly now, as long as the internet exists. And so they're trying to do everything they can, from getting laws enacted, to artificially limiting access, to try and force their information into being a scarce good, just like they think it used to be.
But it never was, and still isn't. Information has never been a scarce good - it's only ever been the format that information took that was scarce - but that's changed, and a lot of companies have yet to understand that.
And so they FAIL...