"Not true - There are plenty of development tools that are totally free to download, but require a payment per seat to use."
True. Well, around here, we call that "Give away and pray". Not the best business model, but may generate some income. It destroys your argument though.
If they have it available on their webpage, then they want people to download it, try it out and (hopefully) pay them for it. If it's available to download on their webpage and they put it also on BitTorrent, how is it illegial to get it from a torrent site and not illegial to get it from the website?
"But I have "lost" something, which is what my copyright should protect me from losing?"
Besides the potential sale of the file to that person (who may pay you anyway or may buy something more tangible from you in the future), what exactly have you lost?
"Yeah, i get the idea that Torrent networks are basically for sharing files, but it could be seen as simply a distribution network. The copyright holder may have put them on the network for people that have been given the right to download.."
If they named the torrent "filename.exe - Do not download if you do not have a license", then I can see it. You are effectively "putting a sign up over your potatoes that they aren't free". That's cool and yes, the people who download that SHOULD be charged. But without that sign, the default is free to download.
"Again, I understand the basic argument, but I still don't agree that because the copyright owner put the files on the net means that anyone can download them."
Not "The Net", but "A file sharing service that is free to all".
"I can download plenty of software apps form the vendor's sites, but if i don't also pay for a licence per end user seat, I'm breaking the law - even if the copyright holder has made the software freely available for download. They could have as easily put the application on a Torrent network and the licence would still be required. Especially if the vendor required you to pay _before_ you download."
Yes. Most of the time, the license is in the program itself. So I don't follow you here. If they have a program that requires a license key, then you are still stuck with an unusable file until you get said key (that you have to pay for). Your analogy doesn't apply here since audio files don't have that key.
I don't want a flame war either.. But your logic is not sound.
For the potatoes, you aren't just leaving them on your front lawn, you are taking them to the market and putting them up on a table with a sign saying "free potatoes". I know of no torrent file that you need to pay for. None.
Now, if you put your file on iTunes and someone took it off there without paying, THEN that would be illegal. But putting it in an area that you know it will be downloaded (Nay, you HOPE it's downloaded because you are counting on the fees) means that your defense of "I put it there not expecting it to be downloaded" would be laughed out of court.
"Same applies here: just because the files are available, still doesn't give people the right to take them."
No. Unless you put them on a service that you know people will take them (and I prefer the term copy. You aren't losing your files when I copy them).
I mean, it's like me handing you a fish that I bought from the local deli and then threatening to take you to court because you stole my fish.
I can't see how anyone would pay the charge. What really worries me about this is that this may count as a strike for those countries adopting the "3 strikes and you are out" law.
By that same logic, I can say "If you click the link to my site above, you owe me $1,000,000" and if you end up clicking it, then you are agreeing to pay me that money.
I will admit, I am not a lawyer (and by your later replies, you are saying you are), but I have yet to see one case that this is true.
If you can find me one, then I'll send you half of the money I get for your services. :)
"OK, by that logic, why don't they go ahead and ban convicted shoplifters from ever entering a store again. Burglars from ever entering homes (anyone's home, their mother's, brother's, or even their own). Car thieves from getting near cars."
When I got run over by a bus, I was arrested. Part of my being let out on bail was that I do not "approach within 100 yards of the victim" (The bus company buses or their stops).
I informed the police officer that I would love to sign that, but as soon as I do, I'm in violation of it because of the bus stop right outside.
If anyone going to burning man wants to protect their files, then email me and I'll host them (no charge). If anyone comes to me with a request to take them down, I'll site fair use and won't.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: yeah yeah, but... (as Phillip Vector)
So you lost nothing but something you may have never gotten anyway.
IMHO, if you put out the file on a free public network that encourages file sharing, you should expect people to copy your file for their use.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: yeah yeah, but... (as Phillip Vector)
"Not true - There are plenty of development tools that are totally free to download, but require a payment per seat to use."
True. Well, around here, we call that "Give away and pray". Not the best business model, but may generate some income. It destroys your argument though.
If they have it available on their webpage, then they want people to download it, try it out and (hopefully) pay them for it. If it's available to download on their webpage and they put it also on BitTorrent, how is it illegial to get it from a torrent site and not illegial to get it from the website?
Re: (as Phillip Vector)
Sorry.. I didn't know they were the police now. :)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: yeah yeah, but... (as Phillip Vector)
"But I have "lost" something, which is what my copyright should protect me from losing?"
Besides the potential sale of the file to that person (who may pay you anyway or may buy something more tangible from you in the future), what exactly have you lost?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: yeah yeah, but... (as Phillip Vector)
Torrent files and the programs attached to them are, by default, free.
If you don't want to give up a file for free, then don't put it on a torrent tracker.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: yeah yeah, but... (as Phillip Vector)
"Yeah, i get the idea that Torrent networks are basically for sharing files, but it could be seen as simply a distribution network. The copyright holder may have put them on the network for people that have been given the right to download.."
If they named the torrent "filename.exe - Do not download if you do not have a license", then I can see it. You are effectively "putting a sign up over your potatoes that they aren't free". That's cool and yes, the people who download that SHOULD be charged. But without that sign, the default is free to download.
"Again, I understand the basic argument, but I still don't agree that because the copyright owner put the files on the net means that anyone can download them."
Not "The Net", but "A file sharing service that is free to all".
"I can download plenty of software apps form the vendor's sites, but if i don't also pay for a licence per end user seat, I'm breaking the law - even if the copyright holder has made the software freely available for download. They could have as easily put the application on a Torrent network and the licence would still be required. Especially if the vendor required you to pay _before_ you download."
Yes. Most of the time, the license is in the program itself. So I don't follow you here. If they have a program that requires a license key, then you are still stuck with an unusable file until you get said key (that you have to pay for). Your analogy doesn't apply here since audio files don't have that key.
Re: Re: Re: yeah yeah, but... (as Phillip Vector)
I don't want a flame war either.. But your logic is not sound.
For the potatoes, you aren't just leaving them on your front lawn, you are taking them to the market and putting them up on a table with a sign saying "free potatoes". I know of no torrent file that you need to pay for. None.
Now, if you put your file on iTunes and someone took it off there without paying, THEN that would be illegal. But putting it in an area that you know it will be downloaded (Nay, you HOPE it's downloaded because you are counting on the fees) means that your defense of "I put it there not expecting it to be downloaded" would be laughed out of court.
"Same applies here: just because the files are available, still doesn't give people the right to take them."
No. Unless you put them on a service that you know people will take them (and I prefer the term copy. You aren't losing your files when I copy them).
Re: yeah yeah, but... (as Phillip Vector)
I mean, it's like me handing you a fish that I bought from the local deli and then threatening to take you to court because you stole my fish.
I can't see how anyone would pay the charge. What really worries me about this is that this may count as a strike for those countries adopting the "3 strikes and you are out" law.
Re: yeah yeah, but... (as Phillip Vector)
As Ima Fish pointed out above... How is this illegal? The company is putting the torrent out to be shared.
Re: (as Phillip Vector)
I have been ninjaed. I was about to ask the same thing.
Re: (as Phillip Vector)
By that same logic, I can say "If you click the link to my site above, you owe me $1,000,000" and if you end up clicking it, then you are agreeing to pay me that money.
I will admit, I am not a lawyer (and by your later replies, you are saying you are), but I have yet to see one case that this is true.
If you can find me one, then I'll send you half of the money I get for your services. :)
Re: Re: Re: Re: (as Phillip Vector)
"OK, by that logic, why don't they go ahead and ban convicted shoplifters from ever entering a store again. Burglars from ever entering homes (anyone's home, their mother's, brother's, or even their own). Car thieves from getting near cars."
When I got run over by a bus, I was arrested. Part of my being let out on bail was that I do not "approach within 100 yards of the victim" (The bus company buses or their stops).
I informed the police officer that I would love to sign that, but as soon as I do, I'm in violation of it because of the bus stop right outside.
He didn't like that.
Re: Re: Photos and such (as Phillip Vector)
Oops.. cite. I'll remember that. :)
Thanks. So far, no one has, but we will see what the future holds.
Photos and such (as Phillip Vector)
If anyone going to burning man wants to protect their files, then email me and I'll host them (no charge). If anyone comes to me with a request to take them down, I'll site fair use and won't.
Yes, I'm serious.
Free Speech (as Phillip Vector)
Popular speech doesn't need protection.
Re: No offense but.... (as Phillip Vector)
I dunno. When was the last time you tried getting said information from the government?
Not saying it's bull (quite the opposite actually). Just that people will just accept it as default.
Re: Re: Reason why I voted for Obama (as Phillip Vector)
It does..
Say you were hired to show the government in a good light. Kind of like a "Hey, look at us. We are going great" kind of thing.
Would you then show several projects as seriously behind schedule?
Reason why I voted for Obama (as Phillip Vector)
Yeah.. Even if this is political bull, it's still something that is out there (and if it was BS, then all projects would show as on schedule).
I like this.. I like this ALLOT.
Re: Re: (as Phillip Vector)
http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing_room/executive_orders/
Re: Whatever it takes.. (as Phillip Vector)
"If you have done nothing wrong why should you honestly care."
Here's what I say when people ask me that...
"So what time should I come by and watch you and your wife have sex? I mean, you are doing nothing wrong, correct? So why should you care if I watch?"
That usually shuts them up.